Just let us know when you find the hidden nitrous tank in your car!!!
Love the explanation of how the software will only use the extra psi boost (up to 1.3bar) if needed. Geez dude, you're an engineer, surely you understand that if it LOOKS too good to be true then it usually IS too good to be true. There's something else going on here for you to be able to pass vtg and intercooler and header modded cars from well known and DOCUMENTED tuners that have shown their data. Like Speed21 noted, if the APR stuff is really the shiznit then they need to just spread the word via verified data and some explanations and most of us would be all over it.

 

I really do not know what else I can do to convince everyone...I sent Vbox data,logged my car with piwis and durametric and measured boost with mechanical gauge...my car did 6,48 60-130 and trust me,i can live with that...Some like it,some not...Cars with modified VTGs and intercoolers starting to pass me ABOVE 210-220km...Maybe at that speeds VTGs starts to shine...

 

Skandalis you have done more than your fair share so please dont feel obliged to continue explaining your own position.

Why APR has totally abandoned you has lent itself to the very questions members are now seeking answers to (myself included). It just doesnt make any sense at all. Why cant they at least verify their cars do the same times as yours? That would take the heat off you.

Historically, people that run for cover come question time usually have something to hide. We also now have the situation where Matthew from GMP has furnished an official APR letter written by "Keith" which has also been found flawed in its content (re bbywu's post). And, as ive continued to point out the 1.3 bar boost also stated is now another mystery and flawed info. If you've had a mechanical guage and you can only produce 1 bar then thats good enough. So far as my understanding goes when an engine is asked to produce maximum power (at WOT) ALL resources are drawn upon. Saving any additional boost reserves for a "rainy day" doesnt stack up. I mean at what stage would it ever get used then? And how does the ECU know when the car is producing its 403kw and 865nms torque? It doesnt have its own built in dynomometer. On the issue of boost Keith mentioned variables in the letter like failed parts or additive drivers style (whatever on earth that means) so am i to assume that its only when a piston seizes in the bore that the 1.3 bar doesnt kick in? Or, am i to assume that only a trained racing driver can get the 1.3 boost beast to unleash itself? Or does additive driving style mean when you on some additive like crack or LSD you can no longer see the 1.3 boost on the gauge at WOT????

BTW on your tip box slip, im not clear. Is it "now" slipping? Thats how i read it. No biggy if it is but just like to know how its stood up to all the power.

 

Speed21...
1)My tip does not slip...
2)Its good to understand you have nothing against me...You see i just bought the car with the software and drive it...I was a hard believer and installed a mechanical gauge...but boost was always 1bar...(max 1,05bar)...You are more than welcome to come here for a weekend to see my car in person...Greece is very nice during summer...

 

Speed21

I would like to set the record straight as some of your comments are far from the truth.

APR is not running for cover what so ever. APR only across this post last week as I had asked Keith some questions that I didn't know the answers to and since then we have been in contact with keith @ APR ever since. Please also keep in mind that they are not sponsors on here so they don't check this site on the regular and wouldn't be able to post anything about their product legally with out have their posts deleted by the moderators.


As for BBYU's comments pointing out some flaws in Keith's email, regardless if there are flaws or not, the people reading this forum need to know that the information was being recalled from memory as the testing for the 997TT was several years ago of course many projects have passed through since. So if there's anything false in his email please note that he wasn't recalling it from something already written down or recently discussed with his engineering team.

[quote]On the issue of boost Keith mentioned variables in the letter like failed parts or additive drivers style (whatever on earth that means) so am i to assume that its only when a piston seizes in the bore that the 1.3 bar doesnt kick in? Or, am i to assume that only a trained racing driver can get the 1.3 boost beast to unleash itself? Or does additive driving style mean when you on some additive like crack or LSD you can no longer see the 1.3 boost on the gauge at WOT????[quote]

Speed21, I think keith was more or less referring to fuel quality, intake temperatures, spark plugs, and that the ECU will adapt to your driving habbits.

I'm not sure why skandalis is getting his 1.0 bar reading as I have a local clients getting 17-20 psi. I'm not an engineer and nor do I know enough to comment about how much boost, fuel and timing is needed to create such numbers, but all I can say is that I have had several other cars chipped by APR, and every single one of them was making more boost than stock while I was in "chipped mode" and I have other customers saying 17-20 psi so I think its safe to say that if your getting 1.0 bar with stock program activated and the car is significantly faster in chipped mode It has to be running more boost. APR however has been known in the past to run less boost than other competitors while making similar power and tq numbers if not slightly higher.

 

It looks like APR programming the VTG vanes to be open all the time (means less boost and less back pressure) + adding too much timing because of low boost and low intake temps to create that kind of torque.

Different tunning aproach compared to other tuners.. However i still wonder why it cant keep up the power after 200 km/h ?

 

1 atmospheric bar = 14.7psi (760 torr) or (760 mmHg)

~A

 

[quote=GMP - Matthew;2866636]Speed21

I would like to set the record straight as some of your comments are far from the truth.

I fail to see where. All my comments are factual unless proven otherwise.

APR is not running for cover what so ever.

If they havent run for cover then where are they?

APR only across this post last week as I had asked Keith some questions that I didn't know the answers to and since then we have been in contact with keith @ APR ever since.

So you admit you are still in contact and yet they choose to use you as their shield?

Please also keep in mind that they are not sponsors on here so they don't check this site on the regular and wouldn't be able to post anything about their product legally with out have their posts deleted by the moderators.

Im not sure about that. I cant see why they cant answer questions being directed at them by members of 6Speed. Its not like we are asking them for the combination to the safe at Fort Knox.

As for BBYU's comments pointing out some flaws in Keith's email, regardless if there are flaws or not,(evidently they are very much flaws going by what bbywu has put forward) the people reading this forum need to know that the information was being recalled from memory (seems rather convenient) as the testing for the 997TT was several years (you said previously only 2 years ago) ago of course many projects have passed through since.

Matthew information simply doesnt get lost along the way particularly if the 997tt tune program is still "current" and "live" in the marketplace. We are not talking about a redundant tune made 10 years ago that has been since pulled off the shelves.

So if there's anything false in his email please note that he wasn't recalling it from something already written down or recently discussed with his engineering team.

Matthew one would have reasonably expected that as APR was being asked for answers and information on their tune that Keith would have made whatever enquiry deemed necessary from his team to provide reliable information. That would make sense.
Why work from memory when it may result in embarrassment (as is the case here now)?
Professionals dont offen provide formal information based on memory or guesswork when they have the resources at their fingertips to provide the right information.

Keiths letter basically comprises of extracts from the same marketing hype on the web page and offered little to no explanation in laymans terms to any of the information provided, flawed as it was and has been found.

[quote]On the issue of boost Keith mentioned variables in the letter like failed parts or additive drivers style (whatever on earth that means) so am i to assume that its only when a piston seizes in the bore that the 1.3 bar doesnt kick in? Or, am i to assume that only a trained racing driver can get the 1.3 boost beast to unleash itself? Or does additive driving style mean when you on some additive like crack or LSD you can no longer see the 1.3 boost on the gauge at WOT????Matthew, i have no idea why skandalis has only 1 bar yet makes the obvious torques he is producing to make those times.

Even a layman ought to know that boost is behind all the torque afterall the engine is a 6 cylinder 3.6 litre, not 7 litre or 8 litre v8, v10 or v12 which has cubes behind it to get those torque numbers.

Matthew, my intention is not to flame you or anyone else up (APR included) but i think 10 pages on its now high time us 6speed members were given answers to the very fair and reasonable questions that have been asked. And, answered in an accurate factual manner, and in laymans terms were necessary.

Is that too much to ask?????

I always thought it was 14.7 from my previous memory but when i double checked the facts yesterday on google search it comes up as being 14.5038....hence me making a change to my earlier post.

 

I just searched and this is what I found searching Al Gore's greatest contrubution to mankind

I recall being taught 1bar = 14.69.. but when I searched, I too found what you posted.

 

New info at hand re the infamous "APR Boost question".

I'm not going to tell you my source other than to say the source is extremely reliable and knows all about the 997tt boost gauge.

BOOST:-
1) Normal can only read up to 1 bar on the gauge regardless of how much more is being shoved in.
2) Sports Chrono mode boost gauge will only show up to 1.2 bar regardless of how much more is being shoved in.
3) True and accurate boost levels however will be shown on data logging.

Now given APR's self proclaimed unique tuning knowledge and expertise with 997tt tuning (that they also proclaim has placed them well ahead of every other 997tt tuners game) one would have thought this info would have already been presented along with all the other answers regarding how their tune is better and worth the substantially higher price.

The truth what APR's "boost" really is, has been one of the key points raised on this thread and there are a number of inconsistancies:

1) We have Skandalis on one hand (see post 135 on p9) strenuously maintaining his boost is no more than 1 bar at any time. He says quote:-"and durametric logging and mechanical gauge" all show that no more than 1 bar of boost is being applied at any given point.

2) Then we have Skandalis on post 56 P4 saying quote:- "I havent logged boost pressure to see actual values".

3) Keith from APR says in his letter boost is up to 19psi (1.31 bar).

4) Post 51 P4 Matthew GMP says he has driven one at wot and it "was acheiving at least 14-15 psi at least"!!

5) Post 52 P4 Matthew GMP quotes a customer of his quote:-"putting out about 18 to 20 psi". (1.3790 bar).

6) Post 115 Matthew agrees with Skandalis that APR doesnt need to use high boost like the other tuners do to get the same power.

And there are others.......

Confused? I know i am.

So who do we believe and what do we believe?

We all know the 865nms didn't fallout of the sky and, the engine is 3.6 litres with a pair of vtg turbochargers....not some thumping 7 litre superchaged V8 with masses of cubes to rely upon.

Come on guys (Matthew GMP and Keith at APR)....can someone please put (some) the facts on the table once and for all.

Us 6speeders want to know how on earth is APR's tune any better than all the other sub 2k packet tune's when it is also using up to 20lbs boost???...so 6speeders can make rational and educated purchasing decisions. Afterall the APR tune is priced well over and above the others and you say that is because it is better but offer no tangable explanation to the how or why.

Please dont keep asking us to take your word or refer to the APR marketing techno babble any more. Facts please!! And, no more unreliable memory stories either thanks.

We've heard talk of dyno charts and performance times that are going to be forthcoming (Post 126 Matthew says independant results from the dyno should be available after the weekend) and Post (108 Dyno tests forthcomming) but still....nothing!! 10 pages on and not one solitary thing!! Even Skandalis said he would dyno but that fell over too.

Btw Skandalis how did you make out with that oil sample analysis? Separate issue i know but just curious.
Also, are you still 100% certain of your data logging showing only 1 bar?

Just checking as every other APR user says they have more boost than what you say you have (plus APR and GMP) so it can no longer be said that APR is producing this 865nm miracle without plenty of boost....just as the other tuners do .

So what is different?

Still patiently waiting.......

 

I just said 4 days ago I will be doing a dyno test very soon....I am not looking to hide anything I could care a less if it runs 30psi I will add a extra gauge to the video to see the truth.

I will dyno in every mode even valet just not sure stock clutch will hold 100oct but I will try.

also will do some 60-130 times before and after.

 

speed21...
my post 56 was in 1st of June while the other was some days later...In the meantime,i plugged my dyrametric and my PIWIS to log boost and just in case they were locked I measured boost with a mechanical gauge that cant be wrong...The weird thing is that whether i run stock,modded or race program there is no overboost feature and always boost is 1bar...(there is no arrow shown in overboost mode)APR Greece stated me that APR tune disables overboost function...I always use Euro pump gas 100octane (equals to 95US i believe) without any additives...Perhaps if i used 91 or 93 octane ECU would adapt and raise the boost to achieve desired performance...Maybe on Euro 100 octane more boost is not needed and ECU can achieve goals from timing...Only APR engineers can tell...

 

Chris

How many miles are on your stock clutch? If the car is pretty new it should hold just fine. However if you drag race it, even in stock mode the clutch with burn up and need to be replaced by your second or third pass. This of course is just from previous experience with the cars that I have here. On the dyno though it should hold up just fine and WOT street driving. Just doesn't hold up to launches from dead stand stills.

Speed21

I love your enthusiasm for this subject I truly do. APR isn't using anyone for their shield. They are very supportive of their dealer network which is why Keith emailed me directly as soon as could from memory. I'm not a mind reader and nor do I try to make up excuses for anyone but knowing first hand what goes on @ APR and how much they have on their plate year round between their own internal projects such as developing software and hardware for future sales for US and the rest of the world, building limited edition vehicles for Volkswagen of America and 4 race teams in which they are constantly servicing the mechanical side of things and recording/modifying their calibrations. They really are on a level of their own and there's never a dull moment @ APR.

As for your boost discovery, if the 997TT won't read more than 1.0 bar of boost why is that I have local clients stating that they can read more than this on their cars? Do you think it's possible that they need to switch it from reading in "bar" to "psi"?

As for your questions. Chris and I would like to be able to answer them all and provide whatever information you need. In order to do that I would like to ask if you would post a list of your questions so that nothing is left out and between GMP & USP we will answer them all... If you could do this for us we will take care of the rest.

I have a 997TT that has APR software and Tubi Race exhaust with a 100 octane in it right now and a vbox on its way. While Chris is doing their dyno's I will try to log some trap times as well.

For now here is a link to our video on how your able to change programs on the fly in your 997.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIYMW0rWbEg[/yt]

 

I think having another honest data point for this parameter with a manual would be very useful information to post whether you break records or not.

Hey Skan, I'm really glad that you have a fast car. It's impressive but are you saying that if you lower the octane, the ECU will deliver MORE boost? So what would happen if you added more boost now? Would it go slower?

This should be interesting. If you think War and Peace was long...Get out the popcorn.

 

TTdude...
All i know my friend is that i bought the car and enjoy how fast it is...I got the time to log it just to clarify boost pressure,and this is all...i really do not know how APR tune operates but my car runs flawless at 1bat with 100octane euro fuel...Maybe other TTs run at higher boost...
However from an engineering point of view perhaps this tune has a torque threshold to override...and when it is achieved with good quality fuel and lot of advance,there might be no need to raise boost any further...On the other hand if fuel has less octanes,there might be the need to raise boost to achieve same torque,as required from the tune...Ask APR,they know more than me...i just drive the car...