APR Tuning
TTdude,
We are here to serve, provide and inform the community. I have no problem doing any leg work to answer any questions you guys may have. It's all part of the job decription, but as a fellow enthusiast I share the same passion for cars and performance just as much as you do.
So get out your popcorn and your preferred soft drink and ask away. Feel free to email me as well I'm in the office from 9am to 6pm and sometimes later.
Once we release the answers to the obvious questions such as the dyno numbers and trap times, video, etc we will offer a little something for the community as a thank you and also an easier way to get be able to try the software as well.
We are here to serve, provide and inform the community. I have no problem doing any leg work to answer any questions you guys may have. It's all part of the job decription, but as a fellow enthusiast I share the same passion for cars and performance just as much as you do.
So get out your popcorn and your preferred soft drink and ask away. Feel free to email me as well I'm in the office from 9am to 6pm and sometimes later.
Once we release the answers to the obvious questions such as the dyno numbers and trap times, video, etc we will offer a little something for the community as a thank you and also an easier way to get be able to try the software as well.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,321
From: Fastlane USA
Rep Power: 246
TTdude...
All i know my friend is that i bought the car and enjoy how fast it is...I got the time to log it just to clarify boost pressure,and this is all...i really do not know how APR tune operates but my car runs flawless at 1bat with 100octane euro fuel...Maybe other TTs run at higher boost...
However from an engineering point of view perhaps this tune has a torque threshold to override...and when it is achieved with good quality fuel and lot of advance,there might be no need to raise boost any further...On the other hand if fuel has less octanes,there might be the need to raise boost to achieve same torque,as required from the tune...Ask APR,they know more than me...i just drive the car...
All i know my friend is that i bought the car and enjoy how fast it is...I got the time to log it just to clarify boost pressure,and this is all...i really do not know how APR tune operates but my car runs flawless at 1bat with 100octane euro fuel...Maybe other TTs run at higher boost...
However from an engineering point of view perhaps this tune has a torque threshold to override...and when it is achieved with good quality fuel and lot of advance,there might be no need to raise boost any further...On the other hand if fuel has less octanes,there might be the need to raise boost to achieve same torque,as required from the tune...Ask APR,they know more than me...i just drive the car...
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,321
From: Fastlane USA
Rep Power: 246
TTdude,
We are here to serve, provide and inform the community. I have no problem doing any leg work to answer any questions you guys may have. It's all part of the job decription, but as a fellow enthusiast I share the same passion for cars and performance just as much as you do.
So get out your popcorn and your preferred soft drink and ask away. Feel free to email me as well I'm in the office from 9am to 6pm and sometimes later.
Once we release the answers to the obvious questions such as the dyno numbers and trap times, video, etc we will offer a little something for the community as a thank you and also an easier way to get be able to try the software as well.
We are here to serve, provide and inform the community. I have no problem doing any leg work to answer any questions you guys may have. It's all part of the job decription, but as a fellow enthusiast I share the same passion for cars and performance just as much as you do.
So get out your popcorn and your preferred soft drink and ask away. Feel free to email me as well I'm in the office from 9am to 6pm and sometimes later.
Once we release the answers to the obvious questions such as the dyno numbers and trap times, video, etc we will offer a little something for the community as a thank you and also an easier way to get be able to try the software as well.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,671
From: Athens
Rep Power: 135
Exactly my friend...I am quite happy a switched from a fast k24/18g car to a 997TT with just flash,exhaust and intake and i really cant tell a difference up to 200-220km...As from a standstill...i love tip more day by day...At the end,99% of driving is up to 200km...
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,658
From: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Rep Power: 236
You are 100% correct, and that's why this thread is so interesting! If anyone else can replicate a 60-130 time in the 6-7second range with just the APR software, a 200cell cat exhaust, plus or minus airbox then sign me up. I'm most interested in times of a 6 speed car but another tip result would also be of interest...
You are 100% correct, and that's why this thread is so interesting! If anyone else can replicate a 60-130 time in the 6-7second range with just the APR software, a 200cell cat exhaust, plus or minus airbox then sign me up. I'm most interested in times of a 6 speed car but another tip result would also be of interest...
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,774
From: OR Room 5
Rep Power: 1007
It depends on the car and setup...the more shifts between 60-130, the greater the disadvantage to a manual car, which adds about 0.2-0.4 seconds per shift including spool time...the rev limiter will also come into play if you can reach 130 in 4th gear.
Registered User
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From: OR Room 5
Rep Power: 1007
My response is still the same.
There are a few setups that create sufficient torque for a 6speed to run single gear from 4th. Put the same setup in a automatic, and the automatic will be slower...heavier car, extra shift.
There are a few setups that create sufficient torque for a 6speed to run single gear from 4th. Put the same setup in a automatic, and the automatic will be slower...heavier car, extra shift.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,774
From: OR Room 5
Rep Power: 1007
Here's the data...ECU programming can change fuel shut off RPM and redline - perhaps Matt can tell us what APR sets those values at.
In a G97.50 6speed manual transmission
305 = tire width in mm 30 = aspect ratio
19 = wheel diameter
iZ 3.818, 2.136, 1.481, 1.181, 0.974, 0.791 iA 3.444
Assuming fuel shut off is 7000 RPM
TD = ((width(mm) * aspect ratio(%) x 2) / 25.4) + Wheel Diameter
TD = 26.2 inches
GR = iZ * iA
MPH = (RPM * TD (Tire Diameter from above)) / (GR * 336)
MPH based on fuel shut off and 6750/6800 redline
1st 41.5 mph with fuel shutoff, 40.0 mph at redline
2nd 74.2 mph with fuel shutoff, 71.5 mph at redline
3rd 107.0 mph with fuel shutoff, 103.2 mph at redline
4th 134.2 mph with fuel shutoff, 129.4 mph at redline
5th 162.7 mph with fuel shutoff, 156.9 mph at redline
6th 200.4 mph with fuel shutoff, 194.6 mph at redline
Unless the fuel shut off RPM has been altered on the 6speed version of APR's programming, there will be at least 1 shift if you start in 3rd. Your Tiptronic will be faster for certain. If there is sufficient low end torque, you may be able to to try a 0 shift run from 4th and still make it past 130 in a single gear.
bob
In a G97.50 6speed manual transmission
305 = tire width in mm 30 = aspect ratio
19 = wheel diameter
iZ 3.818, 2.136, 1.481, 1.181, 0.974, 0.791 iA 3.444
Assuming fuel shut off is 7000 RPM
TD = ((width(mm) * aspect ratio(%) x 2) / 25.4) + Wheel Diameter
TD = 26.2 inches
GR = iZ * iA
MPH = (RPM * TD (Tire Diameter from above)) / (GR * 336)
MPH based on fuel shut off and 6750/6800 redline
1st 41.5 mph with fuel shutoff, 40.0 mph at redline
2nd 74.2 mph with fuel shutoff, 71.5 mph at redline
3rd 107.0 mph with fuel shutoff, 103.2 mph at redline
4th 134.2 mph with fuel shutoff, 129.4 mph at redline
5th 162.7 mph with fuel shutoff, 156.9 mph at redline
6th 200.4 mph with fuel shutoff, 194.6 mph at redline
Unless the fuel shut off RPM has been altered on the 6speed version of APR's programming, there will be at least 1 shift if you start in 3rd. Your Tiptronic will be faster for certain. If there is sufficient low end torque, you may be able to to try a 0 shift run from 4th and still make it past 130 in a single gear.
bob
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,321
From: Fastlane USA
Rep Power: 246
TTdude,
We are here to serve, provide and inform the community. I have no problem doing any leg work to answer any questions you guys may have. It's all part of the job decription, but as a fellow enthusiast I share the same passion for cars and performance just as much as you do.
So get out your popcorn and your preferred soft drink and ask away. Feel free to email me as well I'm in the office from 9am to 6pm and sometimes later.
Once we release the answers to the obvious questions such as the dyno numbers and trap times, video, etc we will offer a little something for the community as a thank you and also an easier way to get be able to try the software as well.
We are here to serve, provide and inform the community. I have no problem doing any leg work to answer any questions you guys may have. It's all part of the job decription, but as a fellow enthusiast I share the same passion for cars and performance just as much as you do.
So get out your popcorn and your preferred soft drink and ask away. Feel free to email me as well I'm in the office from 9am to 6pm and sometimes later.
Once we release the answers to the obvious questions such as the dyno numbers and trap times, video, etc we will offer a little something for the community as a thank you and also an easier way to get be able to try the software as well.
Banned
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,634
Rep Power: 249
I just said 4 days ago I will be doing a dyno test very soon....I am not looking to hide anything I could care a less if it runs 30psi I will add a extra gauge to the video to see the truth.
I will dyno in every mode even valet just not sure stock clutch will hold 100oct but I will try.
also will do some 60-130 times before and after.
I will dyno in every mode even valet just not sure stock clutch will hold 100oct but I will try.
also will do some 60-130 times before and after.
Great to hear its a given that you will be providing data soon. Facts is exactly what we (I) want.
speed21...
my post 56 was in 1st of June while the other was some days later...In the meantime,i plugged my dyrametric and my PIWIS to log boost and just in case they were locked I measured boost with a mechanical gauge that cant be wrong...The weird thing is that whether i run stock,modded or race program there is no overboost feature and always boost is 1bar...(there is no arrow shown in overboost mode)APR Greece stated me that APR tune disables overboost function...I always use Euro pump gas 100octane (equals to 95US i believe) without any additives...Perhaps if i used 91 or 93 octane ECU would adapt and raise the boost to achieve desired performance...Maybe on Euro 100 octane more boost is not needed and ECU can achieve goals from timing...Only APR engineers can tell...
my post 56 was in 1st of June while the other was some days later...In the meantime,i plugged my dyrametric and my PIWIS to log boost and just in case they were locked I measured boost with a mechanical gauge that cant be wrong...The weird thing is that whether i run stock,modded or race program there is no overboost feature and always boost is 1bar...(there is no arrow shown in overboost mode)APR Greece stated me that APR tune disables overboost function...I always use Euro pump gas 100octane (equals to 95US i believe) without any additives...Perhaps if i used 91 or 93 octane ECU would adapt and raise the boost to achieve desired performance...Maybe on Euro 100 octane more boost is not needed and ECU can achieve goals from timing...Only APR engineers can tell...
Sounds discriminatory
against our good greek friends.Another question for APR to answer huh?
Chris
How many miles are on your stock clutch? If the car is pretty new it should hold just fine. However if you drag race it, even in stock mode the clutch with burn up and need to be replaced by your second or third pass. This of course is just from previous experience with the cars that I have here. On the dyno though it should hold up just fine and WOT street driving. Just doesn't hold up to launches from dead stand stills.
I know ive said this before Matthew but frying ones clutch testing out a tune isnt exactly a desirable situation. Most guys cars would have a few ks on them so their clutches would be up for a hammering so testing the tune would be a commitment in one way shape or form.
Speed21
I love your enthusiasm for this subject I truly do.
Yes i can be passionate and persistant.
APR isn't using anyone for their shield.
Well Matthew their efforts to date have been very dissapointing and lacklustre so if you are saying i can now look forward to quality information and some detail to clear up, flesh out and add shape to the hows and whys surrounding their claims that their tune is better than everyone elses then Im looking forward to that and, i will provide you a list of my own questions shortly.
They are very supportive of their dealer network which is why Keith emailed me directly as soon as could from memory.
Giving you a load of bollocks to work with isnt exactly what i would consider being supportive Matthew but for all of that if APR are now ready to redeem themselves then i'm all ears waiting.
I'm not a mind reader and nor do I try to make up excuses for anyone but knowing first hand what goes on @ APR and how much they have on their plate year round between their own internal projects such as developing software and hardware for future sales for US and the rest of the world, building limited edition vehicles for Volkswagen of America and 4 race teams in which they are constantly servicing the mechanical side of things and recording/modifying their calibrations. They really are on a level of their own and there's never a dull moment @ APR.
Well Matthew i guess no matter who you talk to these days everyone is working on a level of their own so there is nothing new hearing they have other fish to fry as well. As i said to begin with APR has plenty to gain if they put their cards on the table with this 997tt tune of theirs.
And, what we have been looking for is answers to clear up why their tune is so much better and to date that has been like pulling wisdom teeth.
As for your boost discovery, if the 997TT won't read more than 1.0 bar of boost why is that I have local clients stating that they can read more than this on their cars? Do you think it's possible that they need to switch it from reading in "bar" to "psi"?
I cant say but i'll change my gauge over to PSI tonight and see if i can get a different result and will let you know. So far my own guage will only register a maximum of 1 bar in normal and 1.2 bar in Sports C (ive tried) and i have been told by Todd K my Proto tune can produce up to 1.1 in normal and 1.3 in Sports C mode.
As for your questions. Chris and I would like to be able to answer them all and provide whatever information you need. In order to do that I would like to ask if you would post a list of your questions so that nothing is left out and between GMP & USP we will answer them all... If you could do this for us we will take care of the rest.
Will do later today/tonight when i get a bit more time to lay it out for you.
I have a 997TT that has APR software and Tubi Race exhaust with a 100 octane in it right now and a vbox on its way. While Chris is doing their dyno's I will try to log some trap times as well.
Great!! Looking forward to seeing those results.
For now here is a link to our video on how your able to change programs on the fly in your 997.
How many miles are on your stock clutch? If the car is pretty new it should hold just fine. However if you drag race it, even in stock mode the clutch with burn up and need to be replaced by your second or third pass. This of course is just from previous experience with the cars that I have here. On the dyno though it should hold up just fine and WOT street driving. Just doesn't hold up to launches from dead stand stills.
I know ive said this before Matthew but frying ones clutch testing out a tune isnt exactly a desirable situation. Most guys cars would have a few ks on them so their clutches would be up for a hammering so testing the tune would be a commitment in one way shape or form.
Speed21
I love your enthusiasm for this subject I truly do.
Yes i can be passionate and persistant.
APR isn't using anyone for their shield.
Well Matthew their efforts to date have been very dissapointing and lacklustre so if you are saying i can now look forward to quality information and some detail to clear up, flesh out and add shape to the hows and whys surrounding their claims that their tune is better than everyone elses then Im looking forward to that and, i will provide you a list of my own questions shortly.
They are very supportive of their dealer network which is why Keith emailed me directly as soon as could from memory.
Giving you a load of bollocks to work with isnt exactly what i would consider being supportive Matthew but for all of that if APR are now ready to redeem themselves then i'm all ears waiting.
I'm not a mind reader and nor do I try to make up excuses for anyone but knowing first hand what goes on @ APR and how much they have on their plate year round between their own internal projects such as developing software and hardware for future sales for US and the rest of the world, building limited edition vehicles for Volkswagen of America and 4 race teams in which they are constantly servicing the mechanical side of things and recording/modifying their calibrations. They really are on a level of their own and there's never a dull moment @ APR.
Well Matthew i guess no matter who you talk to these days everyone is working on a level of their own so there is nothing new hearing they have other fish to fry as well. As i said to begin with APR has plenty to gain if they put their cards on the table with this 997tt tune of theirs.
And, what we have been looking for is answers to clear up why their tune is so much better and to date that has been like pulling wisdom teeth.
As for your boost discovery, if the 997TT won't read more than 1.0 bar of boost why is that I have local clients stating that they can read more than this on their cars? Do you think it's possible that they need to switch it from reading in "bar" to "psi"?
I cant say but i'll change my gauge over to PSI tonight and see if i can get a different result and will let you know. So far my own guage will only register a maximum of 1 bar in normal and 1.2 bar in Sports C (ive tried) and i have been told by Todd K my Proto tune can produce up to 1.1 in normal and 1.3 in Sports C mode.
As for your questions. Chris and I would like to be able to answer them all and provide whatever information you need. In order to do that I would like to ask if you would post a list of your questions so that nothing is left out and between GMP & USP we will answer them all... If you could do this for us we will take care of the rest.
Will do later today/tonight when i get a bit more time to lay it out for you.
I have a 997TT that has APR software and Tubi Race exhaust with a 100 octane in it right now and a vbox on its way. While Chris is doing their dyno's I will try to log some trap times as well.
Great!! Looking forward to seeing those results.
For now here is a link to our video on how your able to change programs on the fly in your 997.
Last edited by speed21; Jun 8, 2010 at 07:57 PM.
Banned
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,634
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Ok Back again.
My questions;-
1) What are the official boost pressures (min/max)APR use on this 997tt tune in both normal and sports modes.
2) Do all countries APR 997tt tunes have the same boost pressures.
3) How does your APR tune "know" when it has achieved the claimed KW and torque ratings shown on your web graphs when you say the maximum boost pressure is not required to reach the maximum power output on every occasion.
4) And, If max boost is not required on each and every occasion to produce the max power output then what determines when it is required? ie: Does the tune have a internal dyno of its own that knows when and where the max boost is required? And, if so, how does it know when it has peaked at the 403kw and 865nms?
6) What does your own datalog info state on real time boost pressures... etc etc.
6) What did your own 997tt test car manage to produce on the dyno (whp)
7) What is the accel test times of your own 997tt (60 to 130...and so on)?
8) What other aftermarket components were fitted on this test car at the time of testing (exhaust, I/C's Turbos/air filter/ clutch etc). Also, was a stronger clutch a pre-requisite to obtain the data?
9) You quote in your letter and website that you calibrate aproximately 250 maps per octane setting compared to an average of 6 to 25 different map changes amongst our competition so:-
a) Why "approximately 250 maps"? Dont mean to offend but this does sound a bit made up and designed to confuse the unknowing masses (ie:marketing BS). If you calibrated each map surely you must have to record the specific number of maps and their individual calibration settings? And if not why not?
b) How do you keep informed of what map numbers the other tuners are calibrating vs your own?
c) How do you know what other tuners are acheiving in their map calibration number rates to actually know how many they are calibrating vs your own methods?
d) How do you know by using your claimed higher map numbers you are actually acheiving anything beyond those tuners that arent?
10) If you "know" you have the best tune out there then why is it that 2 years on you have failed to obtain a decent share of the 997tt tune market? And, what are your plans to correct that?
11) Why is your tune currently priced beyond all of the competition. (putting to one side the bells and whistles of the programme switching which most may not place any value on anyway).
So many questions.... you did ask..
My questions;-
1) What are the official boost pressures (min/max)APR use on this 997tt tune in both normal and sports modes.
2) Do all countries APR 997tt tunes have the same boost pressures.
3) How does your APR tune "know" when it has achieved the claimed KW and torque ratings shown on your web graphs when you say the maximum boost pressure is not required to reach the maximum power output on every occasion.
4) And, If max boost is not required on each and every occasion to produce the max power output then what determines when it is required? ie: Does the tune have a internal dyno of its own that knows when and where the max boost is required? And, if so, how does it know when it has peaked at the 403kw and 865nms?
6) What does your own datalog info state on real time boost pressures... etc etc.
6) What did your own 997tt test car manage to produce on the dyno (whp)
7) What is the accel test times of your own 997tt (60 to 130...and so on)?
8) What other aftermarket components were fitted on this test car at the time of testing (exhaust, I/C's Turbos/air filter/ clutch etc). Also, was a stronger clutch a pre-requisite to obtain the data?
9) You quote in your letter and website that you calibrate aproximately 250 maps per octane setting compared to an average of 6 to 25 different map changes amongst our competition so:-
a) Why "approximately 250 maps"? Dont mean to offend but this does sound a bit made up and designed to confuse the unknowing masses (ie:marketing BS). If you calibrated each map surely you must have to record the specific number of maps and their individual calibration settings? And if not why not?
b) How do you keep informed of what map numbers the other tuners are calibrating vs your own?
c) How do you know what other tuners are acheiving in their map calibration number rates to actually know how many they are calibrating vs your own methods?
d) How do you know by using your claimed higher map numbers you are actually acheiving anything beyond those tuners that arent?
10) If you "know" you have the best tune out there then why is it that 2 years on you have failed to obtain a decent share of the 997tt tune market? And, what are your plans to correct that?
11) Why is your tune currently priced beyond all of the competition. (putting to one side the bells and whistles of the programme switching which most may not place any value on anyway).
So many questions.... you did ask..
Last edited by speed21; Jun 9, 2010 at 05:54 AM.