APR Tuning
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What? There is no science or engineering that supports this.
VTG stands for variable turbine geometry. Turbine output is regulated by changing the inflow angle and inflow speed at the turbine wheel inlet using guide vanes located in front of the turbine wheel.
Any alterations to the vanes on the turbocharges alters flow. Increases or decreases in flow alter boost levels and change torque and horsepower production. This is how boost is controlled on a VTG turbocharged vehicle, rather than using a wastegate system.
VTG stands for variable turbine geometry. Turbine output is regulated by changing the inflow angle and inflow speed at the turbine wheel inlet using guide vanes located in front of the turbine wheel.
Any alterations to the vanes on the turbocharges alters flow. Increases or decreases in flow alter boost levels and change torque and horsepower production. This is how boost is controlled on a VTG turbocharged vehicle, rather than using a wastegate system.
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The goal is to manage to have as much torque as possible at low rpm (less lag)and keep pressure stable until redline...
Which tune would you prefare,one with 580hp and 1bar or one with 580hp and 1,2bar?i would go for less boost...to keep internal combustion chamber pressure levels as low as i can...and to have less internal stress to my engine...
Which tune would you prefare,one with 580hp and 1bar or one with 580hp and 1,2bar?i would go for less boost...to keep internal combustion chamber pressure levels as low as i can...and to have less internal stress to my engine...
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I did not engineer this tune so i cant tell what they ve done...All i can say is that boost is always 1bar at both,boost gauge and piwis reading...as far as hp,my 996TT was 565AWHp mustang and produced 6,32...I believe my 997TT should be around 620hp...but tiptronic gearing helps a lot in 60-130...
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Yes, but isn't there just a tad bit of conflict of interest here?
You are stating the obvious but that's not the point. Your 60-130 time corresponds to at least 700 bhp if not more. No one seems to be able to reconcile how APR is creating so much power with just an ECU flash and exhaust on 1 bar of boost. I'm sure if someone did the calculations, this would prove to be impossible. I'm sorry but the explanation given in post #82 is mostly mumbo jumbo. You keep talking about meaningless generalizations such "unique VTG tune" and "fuel trim". You are an engineer so why don't you (or APR) provide us with some real quantitative answers we can contemplate?
You are stating the obvious but that's not the point. Your 60-130 time corresponds to at least 700 bhp if not more. No one seems to be able to reconcile how APR is creating so much power with just an ECU flash and exhaust on 1 bar of boost. I'm sure if someone did the calculations, this would prove to be impossible. I'm sorry but the explanation given in post #82 is mostly mumbo jumbo. You keep talking about meaningless generalizations such "unique VTG tune" and "fuel trim". You are an engineer so why don't you (or APR) provide us with some real quantitative answers we can contemplate?
I dont know how,but they did it...and car runs fine everyday...
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Ok...i ll be on your side...If there is no science or engineering that supports what i say,then how APR managed to reach these hp/nm levels with only 1bar stable boost?(and not ever overboost?)Why other tuners need more boost to get these levels?There are some obvious differences in map corrections...or what else?
Originally Posted by TTdude
No one seems to be able to reconcile how APR is creating so much power with just an ECU flash and exhaust on 1 bar of boost.
Last edited by bbywu; Jun 4, 2010 at 01:40 PM.
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There is no need for an exhaust specific software tune or for upgraded intercoolers. If there are any changes such as an exhaust or intercoolers (that actually perform) the car will run stronger as the ECU is always taking in information, processing it, and adapting.
lol, I can't believe I just read this...
Last edited by bbywu; Jun 4, 2010 at 02:22 PM.
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APR Dyno
Hey guys. I am in Charleston SC. No one in town has a AWD Dyno and Autometrics, in town, stated they could not dyno my car. If any one is near my area I will be more than happy to provide my ride for a dyno. However, I do need to replace my clutch first. It slips during aggressive acceleration.
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wow, you step away from the computer for a few hours and look what happens!!! IF APR values for hp/tq and acceleration numbers are independently verified then I will wear a t-shirt saying that APR is the REAL wizard of oz.
Speed21, my car is already almost too fast for the streets (of Canada anyway, unless I want to lose my licence). I'll keep my warranty a little longer anyway since I paid for it, and I'll have no regrets when I eventually do upgrade. My car is a long-term keeper, but I'm not yet mortgage-free so it is prudent to keep the warranty at this point.
Speed21, my car is already almost too fast for the streets (of Canada anyway, unless I want to lose my licence). I'll keep my warranty a little longer anyway since I paid for it, and I'll have no regrets when I eventually do upgrade. My car is a long-term keeper, but I'm not yet mortgage-free so it is prudent to keep the warranty at this point.
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Apr dyno
Having a APR tune I am looking forward to the results, and my new clutch.
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bonehead,
There is no need for an exhaust specific software tune or for upgraded intercoolers. If there are any changes such as an exhaust or intercoolers (that actually perform) the car will run stronger as the ECU is always taking in information, processing it, and adapting. The numbers achieved on APR's site is with their exhaust system which includes a sport muffler and 200 cell cats made by B&B.
APR agent here said the tune is ok with stock exhaust but if the car has an AM exhaust they have another program for that. They do a read and then make an adjustment for the exhaust. Now for all i know that was probably just BS after all no one could tell me anything at all regarding how the tune made such massive torque outside of the repeating on the fancy APR web marketing speil which i can read myself. So the agent could not give me any real info an boost, fuel and the likes and basically knew sweet FA about what they were selling.
What I'm about to say of course this is just a matter of personal opinion but with exhaust and APR Software is really almost too fast for the streets.
I noticed bbywu has already had a proper chuckle over this palava in a later post so i will refrain from adding to it, as tempting as it is.
It's nearly impossible inless you live out in the country or the desert to really utilize its full potential unless you get out on a track and even then there are very few straights where you can really use WOT through all the gears. This is just some of the feed back that I've received. So with that said I personally dont think there is a need for larger turbos.
Well that really depends on how much power one needs to satisfy ones power addiction Matthew. However in saying that if APR has made larger turbos and intercoolers redundant in the course of their unique tuning brilliance then as i said before why arent they doing something with this brilliance that is financially and economically rewarding to justify the entire excersise. I've also previously stated that if what they say is so true they could easily put all other tuners out of business as well, but instead have sat on their hands. Why is this so?
I think if you look at some of the upgrade kits out there you lose some bottom end power.
That can happen yes, but that is dependant upon the overall suitability (and design) of these larger turbo and I/C components to the 997tt engine which will ultimately dictate the overall performance outcome.
For the every day drive and road course events this software and exhaust should be all you need.
There is no need for an exhaust specific software tune or for upgraded intercoolers. If there are any changes such as an exhaust or intercoolers (that actually perform) the car will run stronger as the ECU is always taking in information, processing it, and adapting. The numbers achieved on APR's site is with their exhaust system which includes a sport muffler and 200 cell cats made by B&B.
APR agent here said the tune is ok with stock exhaust but if the car has an AM exhaust they have another program for that. They do a read and then make an adjustment for the exhaust. Now for all i know that was probably just BS after all no one could tell me anything at all regarding how the tune made such massive torque outside of the repeating on the fancy APR web marketing speil which i can read myself. So the agent could not give me any real info an boost, fuel and the likes and basically knew sweet FA about what they were selling.
What I'm about to say of course this is just a matter of personal opinion but with exhaust and APR Software is really almost too fast for the streets.
I noticed bbywu has already had a proper chuckle over this palava in a later post so i will refrain from adding to it, as tempting as it is.
It's nearly impossible inless you live out in the country or the desert to really utilize its full potential unless you get out on a track and even then there are very few straights where you can really use WOT through all the gears. This is just some of the feed back that I've received. So with that said I personally dont think there is a need for larger turbos.
Well that really depends on how much power one needs to satisfy ones power addiction Matthew. However in saying that if APR has made larger turbos and intercoolers redundant in the course of their unique tuning brilliance then as i said before why arent they doing something with this brilliance that is financially and economically rewarding to justify the entire excersise. I've also previously stated that if what they say is so true they could easily put all other tuners out of business as well, but instead have sat on their hands. Why is this so?
I think if you look at some of the upgrade kits out there you lose some bottom end power.
That can happen yes, but that is dependant upon the overall suitability (and design) of these larger turbo and I/C components to the 997tt engine which will ultimately dictate the overall performance outcome.
For the every day drive and road course events this software and exhaust should be all you need.
Wouldn't you need a reflash anyway if you upgraded the turbos even with in the same software brand? And if your bank account should get that sudden windfall to spend 15k on upgraded turbos I highly doubt you would be too worried about wasting a couple grand previously on APR software, which if you think about it, there isn't another mod for the price that will get you the same amount of power anyways so its really not that much of a waste.
Most custom tuners and also most other packet tuners also offer free remaps so their is no need to spend again.
To everyone thinking about software upgrades. We have taken away every possible reason for you not to try the day trial. There seriously wont be any hard feelings at all, no questions asked, if your not happy with it or if its not fast enough, or you simply just don't want it we will give you your money back. Does anyone know of any other brand out there that offers this?
Virtually everyone else offers a satisfaction money back garantee so APR is certainly not unique with their offer . All it takes is about 30 minutes of your time to down load it, and another 30 minutes to flash it back to stock. Ya'll have nothing to use and everything to gain
Most custom tuners and also most other packet tuners also offer free remaps so their is no need to spend again.
To everyone thinking about software upgrades. We have taken away every possible reason for you not to try the day trial. There seriously wont be any hard feelings at all, no questions asked, if your not happy with it or if its not fast enough, or you simply just don't want it we will give you your money back. Does anyone know of any other brand out there that offers this?
Virtually everyone else offers a satisfaction money back garantee so APR is certainly not unique with their offer . All it takes is about 30 minutes of your time to down load it, and another 30 minutes to flash it back to stock. Ya'll have nothing to use and everything to gain
.Speed21...
i believe you did not read very carefully what GMP stated...Matth wrote that boost pressure can vary between 15 and 19psi...which is from 1 to 1,2 bar almost...depending upon all engine characteristics and performance...he wrote that the lower the boost you see,the better for your engine because ECU sees all differences needed and does not raise boost beyond this point...If ECU can not tune the car at the desired level THEN it raises boost above 1bar...Please read it again to make it clear...So my car,that reads ONLY 1bar all the times is ok...and so ECU does not need to raise boost to achieve desired results...Also i checked boost with my own piwis and it was 1bar as well...So APR did not lock up boost meter...You need to understand that the times when raised boost levels were needed in order to get torque have passed...VTG turbos are a different story and they dont need raised boost to produce more torque and hp...just proper tune on VTG maps...
i believe you did not read very carefully what GMP stated...Matth wrote that boost pressure can vary between 15 and 19psi...which is from 1 to 1,2 bar almost...depending upon all engine characteristics and performance...he wrote that the lower the boost you see,the better for your engine because ECU sees all differences needed and does not raise boost beyond this point...If ECU can not tune the car at the desired level THEN it raises boost above 1bar...Please read it again to make it clear...So my car,that reads ONLY 1bar all the times is ok...and so ECU does not need to raise boost to achieve desired results...Also i checked boost with my own piwis and it was 1bar as well...So APR did not lock up boost meter...You need to understand that the times when raised boost levels were needed in order to get torque have passed...VTG turbos are a different story and they dont need raised boost to produce more torque and hp...just proper tune on VTG maps...
1) APR 997T ECU Upgrade owners can expect to see anywhere from 1 bar to 19 psi of pressure during wide open throttle operation. The lower your boost pressures are, the more often the car is operating in its highest efficiency range based on those parameters as it doesn’t need more boost to make up for other deficiencies. Regardless however, since our calibrators leave the load-based compensational mapping features intact, the engine will always meet its desired load and will always perform at its maximum power output as intended by our engineering team unless it is unachievable due to other influences such as additive driving style, fuel quality or a parts failure.<O>
</O>
<O>
I highlighted the specific lines to see my point...
Engineering of this tune is awesome...ECU does anything BUT raise boost pressure in order to achieve desired performance levels...IF ECU cant reach these levels,THEN it raises boost...They really go the opposite way of other tuners...that raise boost and add fuel...And that is more than welcome to me as an Electronic Engineer...
</O>
</O><O>
I highlighted the specific lines to see my point...
Engineering of this tune is awesome...ECU does anything BUT raise boost pressure in order to achieve desired performance levels...IF ECU cant reach these levels,THEN it raises boost...They really go the opposite way of other tuners...that raise boost and add fuel...And that is more than welcome to me as an Electronic Engineer...
</O>
The fact remains that at WOT the ecu would be giving the engine its ALL and that would include delivering the 1.3 bar at the first opportunity. The more hp and torque it can deliver the better the performance will be at WOT and to suggest that the tune doesnt need to draw upon its boost reserves of 1.3 bar is total horsesh1t. Again the gauge?
And, on the point of poor linearity and poor smoothness it all depends on the tuners specific settings and the other AM components that have been used on the engine. I have heard of a certain tune that has on occassion delivered irregular and poor linearity but you cant simply apply that accross the board. The majority of tuners produce very smooth and linear tunes so to say APR is the only tuner out there able to produce a smooth linear tune is total nonsense.
Last edited by speed21; Jun 4, 2010 at 11:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by GMP - Matthew
...let me add one more to those who simply just add boost and fuel to gain more power, this typically results power that isn't very smooth which is what also seperates APR from the other tuners.
Originally Posted by GMP - Matthew
Tuning goes beyond adding more boost and fuel, With the combination of being able unlock and control the VTG's and timing are the major keys to their programming upgrade.
Controlling the VTG vanes changes flow through the turbines. It is a means of controlling boost and flow without wastegates. Remapping the VTGs expand the usable flow rate range while while maintaining a efficiency. Turbine output is regulated by changing the inflow angle and inflow speed at the turbine wheel inlet in front of the turbine wheel. When the guide vanes are closed, the high circumferential components of the flow velocity lead to a high turbine output and high charging pressure. When the guide vanes are open position, the turbine reaches its maximum flow rate.
Either way, remapping VTGs simply changes flow through the turbines.
If you are going to make technical arguments about APRs tuning, they are going to scrutinized if they don't make sense.
Last edited by bbywu; Jun 4, 2010 at 11:30 PM.
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This is an inherent fundamental of how Motronic operates, not a unique feature of any specific tune by any vendor. Torque = Airflow (boost). To make more torque, you need more boost. Ignition timing and fueling can only go so far. The "VTG maps" you speak of are how boost is controlled on this car, there is no traditional wastegate duty control. There is no magic way to get so much extra torque without the airflow (boost) to match.
The goal is to manage to have as much torque as possible at low rpm (less lag)and keep pressure stable until redline...
Which tune would you prefare,one with 580hp and 1bar or one with 580hp and 1,2bar?i would go for less boost...to keep internal combustion chamber pressure levels as low as i can...and to have less internal stress to my engine...
Which tune would you prefare,one with 580hp and 1bar or one with 580hp and 1,2bar?i would go for less boost...to keep internal combustion chamber pressure levels as low as i can...and to have less internal stress to my engine...
Ok...i ll be on your side...
Skandalis its not nor should it ever be about taking sides but unfortunately APR's lack of clarity is now making some "take sides" and getting all defensive instead of providing answers to fair and reasonable questions.
If there is no science or engineering that supports what i say,then how APR managed to reach these hp/nm levels with only 1bar stable boost?(and not ever overboost?)
Skandalis APR has clearly stated in their letter they are using up to 1.3 bar so i dont see what there is to misunderstand on this particular point. It is in writing. As i said, your gauge reading is an unanswered question.
Why other tuners need more boost to get these levels?There are some obvious differences in map corrections...or what else? No,
Skandalis its not nor should it ever be about taking sides but unfortunately APR's lack of clarity is now making some "take sides" and getting all defensive instead of providing answers to fair and reasonable questions.
If there is no science or engineering that supports what i say,then how APR managed to reach these hp/nm levels with only 1bar stable boost?(and not ever overboost?)
Skandalis APR has clearly stated in their letter they are using up to 1.3 bar so i dont see what there is to misunderstand on this particular point. It is in writing. As i said, your gauge reading is an unanswered question.
Why other tuners need more boost to get these levels?There are some obvious differences in map corrections...or what else? No,
See above in blue and below:-
"Other tuners" also use similar boost levels as APR and, whilst able to produce the same hp levels have not produced the same torques (by some 100nms or more) as claimed by APR. That is one of the key questions being asked and I believe we are still awaiting for independant testing to provide confirmation.
Yes, but isn't there just a tad bit of conflict of interest here? You are stating the obvious but that's not the point. Your 60-130 time corresponds to at least 700 bhp if not more. No one seems to be able to reconcile how APR is creating so much power with just an ECU flash and exhaust on 1 bar of boost. I'm sure if someone did the calculations, this would prove to be impossible. I'm sorry but the explanation given in post #82 is mostly mumbo jumbo. You keep talking about meaningless generalizations such "unique VTG tune" and "fuel trim". You are an engineer so why don't you (or APR) provide us with some real quantitative answers we can contemplate?
I did not engineer this tune so i cant tell what they ve done...All i can say is that boost is always 1bar at both,boost gauge and piwis reading...as far as hp,my 996TT was 565AWHp mustang and produced 6,32...I believe my 997TT should be around 620hp...but tiptronic gearing helps a lot in 60-130...
Given they have their own 996tt and 997tt cars (with this same very special unique tune of theirs) one would have automatically expected they would have helped you out by saying "hey guys" "our cars also produce the same performance times as Skandalis's car so to further verify/qualify what you have produced. Yet they remain silent....???
Btw you never came back with an answer on how your tiptronic box is holding out?? I recall you saying it slips??
Hey guys. I am in Charleston SC. No one in town has a AWD Dyno and Autometrics, in town, stated they could not dyno my car. If any one is near my area I will be more than happy to provide my ride for a dyno. However, I do need to replace my clutch first. It slips during aggressive acceleration.
wow, you step away from the computer for a few hours and look what happens!!! IF APR values for hp/tq and acceleration numbers are independently verified then I will wear a t-shirt saying that APR is the REAL wizard of oz.
Yep The Bogg, when i switched on the computor this morning it blew me away to see the level of activity thats been going on this thread overnight (my time). So much defense and justification instead of providing answers to fair questions. Im only now getting around to responding to some of them.
Speed21, my car is already almost too fast for the streets (of Canada anyway, unless I want to lose my licence). I'll keep my warranty a little longer anyway since I paid for it, and I'll have no regrets when I eventually do upgrade. My car is a long-term keeper, but I'm not yet mortgage-free so it is prudent to keep the warranty at this point.
Yep The Bogg, when i switched on the computor this morning it blew me away to see the level of activity thats been going on this thread overnight (my time). So much defense and justification instead of providing answers to fair questions. Im only now getting around to responding to some of them.
Speed21, my car is already almost too fast for the streets (of Canada anyway, unless I want to lose my licence). I'll keep my warranty a little longer anyway since I paid for it, and I'll have no regrets when I eventually do upgrade. My car is a long-term keeper, but I'm not yet mortgage-free so it is prudent to keep the warranty at this point.
Agree. No race on getting the tune. At the rate APR is going in providing answers it may well be next year before you have the info you need.
tclay i have no idea how you have managed to put up with a slippy dippy clutch for as long as you have even if it is only at WOT. Any slip is not good and you wont be getting the best out of your tune until you have that fixed. Your flywheel is probably a heat spotted mess by now.
Last edited by speed21; Jun 5, 2010 at 02:24 AM.
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speed21
1)Inever said my tip slips...it does not...(until now at least)
2)APR stated that if ECU cant reach desired performace level at 1,0bar THEN boost is raised up to 1,3 so to achieve desired results.So they keepboost raise as the last solution.My car keeps 1,0bar all the times,measured with dash boost display,piwis and durametric logging and mechanical guage...As i ve stated earlier i was a hard believer about my car but when i drove it and put Vbox to it,i believed it.It is true that APR doesnot support me the way they should,but when a product operates fine and flawless i have to admit their work and speak the truth...Finally i know my car very well and i ve tuned a friends 997TT running my own software but couldnt get a 100-200 below 6,2 even with 1,2boost...So APR is superior and i am gladi bought this car without even paying for the software...If anyone isabout to visit Greece i willbe more than happy to give a ride with my car...But please dont say my gauge is off...I am in position to know what boost my car runs to...Even if APR had locked sensor,and trick PIWIS,a mechanical gauge cant go wrong...
P.S. in order foryou to understund why i keep writing about APR,imagine that i bought this car with the software and did not touch a thing except for axhaust and filter,and i am ableto pass modified VTG cars here...So that made me happy...
1)Inever said my tip slips...it does not...(until now at least)
2)APR stated that if ECU cant reach desired performace level at 1,0bar THEN boost is raised up to 1,3 so to achieve desired results.So they keepboost raise as the last solution.My car keeps 1,0bar all the times,measured with dash boost display,piwis and durametric logging and mechanical guage...As i ve stated earlier i was a hard believer about my car but when i drove it and put Vbox to it,i believed it.It is true that APR doesnot support me the way they should,but when a product operates fine and flawless i have to admit their work and speak the truth...Finally i know my car very well and i ve tuned a friends 997TT running my own software but couldnt get a 100-200 below 6,2 even with 1,2boost...So APR is superior and i am gladi bought this car without even paying for the software...If anyone isabout to visit Greece i willbe more than happy to give a ride with my car...But please dont say my gauge is off...I am in position to know what boost my car runs to...Even if APR had locked sensor,and trick PIWIS,a mechanical gauge cant go wrong...
P.S. in order foryou to understund why i keep writing about APR,imagine that i bought this car with the software and did not touch a thing except for axhaust and filter,and i am ableto pass modified VTG cars here...So that made me happy...
Last edited by skandalis447; Jun 5, 2010 at 06:32 AM.