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997 Turbo / GT2 20062012 Turbo discussion on the 997 model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo.

Area Under the Curve

 
  #31  
Old 06-22-2011, 09:52 PM
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In a recent thread by "Champion Motorsport" there had been discussion about Big HP/TQ early on in the rev band was damaging to the engine.

Could this be the reason that Tuners like Proto or Porsche themselves do not allow for such an aggressive Torque band?

Another Tuner commented in the thread that they had been making 100+rwhp more with GT30R's and felt it was safer because the torque came in slower.

TTDude... What is your feeling on the Mildly modded VTG's you have? I did some head to head drag racing with an Upgraded Switzer car and my car had been a couple 10th's and MPH faster with a Proto Flash only.

MBailey... Great numbers. Are A28's the 2876R with a Tial Exhaust Housing?
 
  #32  
Old 06-22-2011, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SpoolnV8 View Post
TTDude... What is your feeling on the Mildly modded VTG's you have? I did some head to head drag racing with an Upgraded Switzer car and my car had been a couple 10th's and MPH faster with a Proto Flash only.
My upgraded vtgs have been absolutely great. They are an excellent upgrade that keeps as close to stock as possible but just shifts whole experience to another level with very significant improvement in performance and boost repsonse. No EBC necessary and everything is really safe, imho. The Proto tune is silky smooth. This to me is how the car should have come out of the factory. What I didn't realize until I saw Mike's data is that there's a lot to be gained at the lower end. I thought vtgs were the benchmark due to all the hype but as Eclou pointed out, that's not the case (at least not with my vtgs). In any event, a 6.9s 60-130 is nothing to shake a stick at and that was done at higher elevation with 3% less O2 to burn with minimal amount of mods. It will be interesting to see what data Asher collects as I think he is datalogging stock vtgs+tune and upgraded vtgs+tune. I don't have any data for the former.
 
  #33  
Old 06-23-2011, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by TTdude View Post
That's impressive. Is the R911 package on pump gas the same thing as your P800 package?
Because we use modified A30's on that package, it is more efficient and we can make a little more power out of it on pump gas than our P800, helps make up for any loss in transient response.
 
  #34  
Old 06-23-2011, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Neil Switzer View Post
IIRC, our R911 for the 997TT runs 5.5 60-130's on 93 octane. Also traps a little over 140mph.
drool...that's outstanding on pump gas. I'd love that package but it's not in the financial plan, lol.
 
  #35  
Old 06-23-2011, 11:08 AM
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Bogg, we can work around nearly any limitations, give me a shout!
 
  #36  
Old 06-23-2011, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SpoolnV8 View Post
MBailey... Great numbers. Are A28's the 2876R with a Tial Exhaust Housing?
Thanks!
They have the Tial housing but I believe they are based on 2868RS...
 
  #37  
Old 06-23-2011, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Neil Switzer View Post
Bogg, we can work around nearly any limitations, give me a shout!
Let me get tired of upgraded vtgs first.
 
  #38  
Old 06-23-2011, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SpoolnV8 View Post
In a recent thread by "Champion Motorsport" there had been discussion about Big HP/TQ early on in the rev band was damaging to the engine.

Could this be the reason that Tuners like Proto or Porsche themselves do not allow for such an aggressive Torque band?
Hi Spooln...yeah that thread caused quite a bit of controversy it seems..lol. But in the end it turned into some very healthy and educational conversation about these engines and what they can and cannot handle. Although many other tuners have insisted that over 700+ whp AND tq is safe for the stock engine (and even shown it in some of their builds), there was an equal amount of owners who showed and proved that their rods were damaged at the power level we suggested, and even lower!

So...that begs the question: Is anything over 675 whp REALLY necessary, other then for bragging rights? In our opinion, no. With all due respect to Switzer and Proto and all those who use alpha and GT turbos (who build fantastic and powerful kits), our approach using VTG turbos is yielding greater performance, even at a lower power level. Our 68mm VTG turbo kit, only producing 675hp is capable of a 5.50 second 60-130 time (verified in the 6Speed rankings), which is equal to or faster then a lot of kits using larger turbos and producing more power. I've attached a dyno chart that should shed some light on why. (for the record that test was conducted at a 3rd party facility, not ours) It's WHERE the power is delivered. Look not only at how early peak TQ is achieved with our turbos, but also the duration of that TQ. You're getting over 500 lb/ft of TQ from 3700 rpm's onward....and a good portion of that is over 600 lb/ft. That's USABLE power. And if you take a look at what our turbo "kit" includes for the price (all the carbon, the exhaust, the manifolds...etc)...it's an incredible value in comparison.

So the question in my eyes then becomes why any more then that power level is needed?

 
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Last edited by [email protected]; 06-23-2011 at 12:25 PM. Reason: added dyno graph...oops.
  #39  
Old 06-24-2011, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Hi Spooln...yeah that thread caused quite a bit of controversy it seems..lol. But in the end it turned into some very healthy and educational conversation about these engines and what they can and cannot handle. Although many other tuners have insisted that over 700+ whp AND tq is safe for the stock engine (and even shown it in some of their builds), there was an equal amount of owners who showed and proved that their rods were damaged at the power level we suggested, and even lower!

So...that begs the question: Is anything over 675 whp REALLY necessary, other then for bragging rights? In our opinion, no. With all due respect to Switzer and Proto and all those who use alpha and GT turbos (who build fantastic and powerful kits), our approach using VTG turbos is yielding greater performance, even at a lower power level. Our 68mm VTG turbo kit, only producing 675hp is capable of a 5.50 second 60-130 time (verified in the 6Speed rankings), which is equal to or faster then a lot of kits using larger turbos and producing more power. I've attached a dyno chart that should shed some light on why. (for the record that test was conducted at a 3rd party facility, not ours) It's WHERE the power is delivered. Look not only at how early peak TQ is achieved with our turbos, but also the duration of that TQ. You're getting over 500 lb/ft of TQ from 3700 rpm's onward....and a good portion of that is over 600 lb/ft. That's USABLE power. And if you take a look at what our turbo "kit" includes for the price (all the carbon, the exhaust, the manifolds...etc)...it's an incredible value in comparison.

So the question in my eyes then becomes why any more then that power level is needed?
Tom, Would be willing to share your datalogs and let me graph it? All I need is MAF, IAT, and RPM. You wouldn't be revealing any timing, afr, or boost. What do you think? Dave
 

Last edited by TTdude; 06-24-2011 at 12:26 AM.
  #40  
Old 06-24-2011, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by TTdude View Post
Tom, Would be willing to share your datalogs and let me graph it? All I need is MAF, IAT, and RPM. You wouldn't be revealing any timing, afr, or boost. What do you think? Dave
Absolutely. I asked Louis to pull one of the logs from the recent 68mm upgrade we did here last week. I showed him the formula and this post, and he was really intrigued by the concept. Of course, with all the million things he had to do yesterday to get ready for his races this weekend, he forgot and he's out of the office today. I'll make sure I can get it for you Monday. Remind me in case I forget..lol.
 
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  #41  
Old 06-24-2011, 08:09 AM
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Dude,

What about some data from 63,5mm VTGs with extruded hot sides ?

Just give me an email
 
  #42  
Old 06-24-2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Absolutely. I asked Louis to pull one of the logs from the recent 68mm upgrade we did here last week. I showed him the formula and this post, and he was really intrigued by the concept. Of course, with all the million things he had to do yesterday to get ready for his races this weekend, he forgot and he's out of the office today. I'll make sure I can get it for you Monday. Remind me in case I forget..lol.
Sounds great. I'm sure folks would be interested. Thanks!

Originally Posted by milou View Post
Dude,

What about some data from 63,5mm VTGs with extruded hot sides ?

Just give me an email
Sure, would be happy to. Will send email.
 

Last edited by TTdude; 06-24-2011 at 10:54 AM.
  #43  
Old 06-24-2011, 12:18 PM
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Dave, I'll send you my tune datalog and you can compare it to the vtg one.
 
  #44  
Old 06-24-2011, 02:22 PM
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Hi Asher, Send me whatever you got. I'll plot anything. I can even add a fudge factor and make it look nice--LOL. Your AUC will be looking really good.
 
  #45  
Old 06-24-2011, 06:26 PM
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Milou's third gear pull with Tip. He's running mafless so I used Load values. Looks like your extrude hotsides paid off! Nice low end gains with some gains up top as well. Thanks for sharing bro. Your car must feel really sweet.

 
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Last edited by TTdude; 11-17-2013 at 11:00 AM.

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