I think Cannga and I are brothers from other mothers..... we have almost identical opinions time and time again.. down to the fantasy day at GIAC getting tuned

 

ROFL and what a coincidence that you are using this expression! A colleague of mine at work *always* says the same thing to me jokingly when we run into each other in hallways, etc. Except we are of different ethnicities and he would say "hello my brother from a different mother."

 

Yes, you know, and I know, that weight might be the single biggest problem with the GTR. But I wonder if the average buyers know the nuances they are missing out of this hobby when they purchase a 3900 lbs sports car with no manual transmission? That they are not really buying a "cheaper and faster" Turbo, as that leaked video of GTR and Turbo at the Ring might have suggested? (Starting with the engine placement the 2 cars actually have very little in common and it's only through excellent marketing that they are compared so often.)
It remains a puzzle to me why with a clean sheet design they come out with that tremendous weight. That would be my one and only question for the design team: "what happened?"

1. Did someone really say this about the weight of the GTR making it a better all weather daily driver? Was there a reasonable explanation given? A big heavier sports car requires fatter tire to withstand the weight and all this will do is to promote aquaplaning - break of traction. Really, there is NOTHING good about weight in motorsports, unless you are racing downhill all the times.

2. I don't believe so. If someone says that they have a suspension tune that improves ride AND handling of the GTR; I am extremely, extremely skeptical. Outside of losing weight, there is nothing you could do that improves ride and handling simultaneously. Anything you do to improve the ride of the GTR *will* cause the handling to suffer. I am not being critical at all - this is the decision that Nissan made and buyers need to be beware, in order for such a heavy car to be so fast, there is no way but to make it punishingly stiff. This is an unsolveable trade-off.

 

Agree with him or not, here is why Mizuno chose to produce the GT-R at its current weight (from March, 2011): http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2011...-mizuno-24252:

In attendance at this week's launch of the MY11 GT-R, Nissan's Chief Vehicle Engineer Kazutoshi Mizuno wearily fielded the obvious question about weight with a reminder that the "GT-R is a multi-performance supercar."

That includes good performance in all conditions, for all drivers, at all times: "Anyone, anytime, anywhere" is the company's current slogan for the GT-R.

Nissan's customers for the GT-R include those living in snowy, sandy conditions.

"Tyre contact, pressures and the conditions are the most important factors for control," he said. "An F1 can't perform in the snow; it's too light.

"Other car designers develop a car as a unit. I develop the car's essentials. I decide the tyre size. The most effective contact pressure decides the amount of kilograms we should include; for the best tyre grip. From these situations I calculate and decide car weight.

"Always [motoring] journalists say: "Lighter is better, lighter is better... I don't necessarily think so. The most effective tyre contact is essential, and it's these essentials that decide things like weight."

He argues that if the GT-R had been trimmed to match or better its apparent rival, the Porsche 911 Turbo, the car's performance "wouldn't be better, but worse."

"Maybe on a dry road or track but not on the snow, and its 0-100km/h acceleration time wouldn't be as good."

Asking Aussie journalists to reconcile with markets that are affected by snow might be a big ask, but accommodating our roads isn't the highest priority on Nissan's agenda: Rather, its wealthy local buyers -- for example a revered doctor living in Hokkaido -- and expanding interests in the Middle East with its sandy roads are of more interest.

Nissan claims the GT-R's sprint time is now three seconds, and a lap of the Nurburgring can be done in 7min24sec.

Mizuno says downforce also makes a fast car, and is arguably more important than controlling weight. And downforce in part relies on tyre grip load: weight...

The Nissan engineer says the GT-R can carry more corner speed, at 10km difference to the Porsche Turbo. "It's a way to make a message."

According to Mizuno the GT-R weighs 1730kg; over the Porsche by "about 100kg".

"But actual clocked lap time is very different," he was quick to add.

Mizuno says the Porsche isn't even on the GT-R's radar in terms of development benchmarks.

"Already that [argument] is finished," he said. "All our standard models can already get 7:24 or under... There's no comparison."

 

Hi Scott, no doubt that Mizuno is a highly experienced and knowledgeable engineer, but these are probably the most baffling and unintentionally funny statements I've read from a pro. This is not Mizuno the talented engineer speaking, it's Mizuno the salesman trying to explain why the car is so heavy to the journalists who were bringing up the same issue I am discussing here.

From the tone of your quote, I believe you know already that they don't make sense. #1 is silly and actually quite misleading (maybe something is lost in translation - the F1 has big fat slicks for dry performance). #2 contradicts what all of us do on this fourm (lighter wheel, lighter tire, lighter battery, lighter brake, etc., etc.), what our tuners tell us, what Porsche does, what Ferrari does, what Lamborghini does, etc. (all high performance versions of any given car weigh less and concentrate on weighing less).

#3, I am really just speechless. Did he really just say that he keeps the weight up so the car would have better performance in the snow, even if dry performance suffer? The GTR, 500 plus hp, tremendous sub 7:40 'ring time, flat tire with max dry traction, actually designed to be heavy for better snow performance? I am shocked the journalists let Mizuno say all these things without challenging him!

IMHO the real answer is that Mizuno knows (of course he knows) that weight is a problem, but most likely because of the PDK, the 4WD mechanism, and most important of all, restriction on cost, they could not keep the weight down. Just for fun and speculating: I am willing to bet they start out with a much lower weight target and found out too deep into development to change. There is absolutely no way that a talented engineer like Mizuno would set a target of 3900 lbs. for a 'ring conqueror.

 

I love that I resurrected this thread!

Can, it is fine to make the arguments that the guy may or may not have an odd sense of purpose, but you can't deny the simple results. Mizuno built an incredible car. It is undeniable. The performance is incredible. You can't deny the results, howsoever they are achieved. If you want brutal, physic defying performance, try a BMW MX6. So big, so heavy, yet with 285 tires the thing has no body roll and sticks like glue. Anyway, a digression.

For me in a buying decision, a new '09 TT was $140-150k. A 2012 GT-R, about $100k. The TT is about 50% more expensive! Interestingly, they are both about the same price in the used market now. So, which is the better used car buy? Or will the '10 TT drop below $100k by March? Because the TT is older, it is a better "value" because it has depreciated. Sounds like the 2012 GT-R is really the only one to buy as it is more refined than its predecessors. I guess the GT-R holds its value fairly well, but so does the TT. In response to some of the comments, of course the TT is more refined with better fit and finish, it costs 50% more! Imagine if the GT-R was built to a $150k price point?!

Anyway, I guess if we were on another board comparing the GT-R to a Z06 and talking about ride quality, the comments would say how refined the GT-R ride is! Probably the biggest problem with the TT is the ride is too mushy. On a $150k car, you need to drop $4k on suspension work!? Kinda embarrassing. Nevertheless, I think the TT was built as more of a refined GT (after all, the car is available as a GT3 variant), although it can easily be tuned to much more of a sporting car as it is a wonderful platform. In fact, I probably look for a car with more of a refined GT character, which may make me more inclined towards the TT.

Still yet to drive a GT-R, I lean towards the TT to satisfy the long held dream...

 

Perspective is everything...

Thanks, Scott, for looking that up. It definitely sparked some interesting posts, even for the NAGTROC guys. I can't say I agree with everything, but there is at least a glimmer of logic to it all.

And to add - the 2012/13 suspension did just that - it became smoother, but better performance. The trick is to build in MORE adjustability to the in-cabin controls. Comfort mode is actually more comfortable, and R mode is slightly more stiff.

One thing I'm considering as the time moves closer for my next major car (two years), is holding on to the '09, just going with a P800 package, and some DBA suspension bits to make it a newer feeling (with a small trans upgrade to ensure everything is going to work well after warranty period ends).

I'm keeping a close eye on the path of Lotus (specifically the Elan and Espirit), and Lexus (with the supposed LF-LC not making into production, right after they released a blue one with an actual 500HP hybrid engine).

 

You must be misreading my tone, because my thoughts are that Mizuno is a significantly more intelligent automotive engineer than anyone on this forum, and is easily one of the top engineers in the industry. I also know that the GT-R has been able to accomplish things that people still have a difficult time grasping, so I think there is a lot of validity in his statements. Let's keep in mind that if he wanted to design a 3400-3500 lb AWD DCT sports car, he could have done it easily at the GT-R's price point (the $35k 370Z only weighs 3245 with no carbon fiber).

No, I think the weight of the GT-R was the plan from the beginning. Remember that his 'initial' target when he designed the GT-R was the 911 Turbo. Not a Radical SR8, or even a Viper ACR. Once he beat the Turbo, his benchmarks moved. But I don't think he sees any reason to lighten the current car when it continues to get faster every year with very minimal modifications. I believe that even the 991 TT's performance will be a relatively easy benchmark to reach with the current platform.

Hell, Lamborghini's top-dog, the Aventador, weighs 3800 lbs wet. Pretty much the same as a stock GT-R does. I guess Lamborghini is incapable of building a light car as well? Or the Veyron, the most technologically advanced production car ever made, weighs 4470. Was that a mistake by Bugatti? Were they simply unable to design a lighter car at a price point of $2.2M, or did they make it heavy by design?

It was actually just released today that the 2014 GT-R ran the 'ring in 7:19.1. Of course the older models have already gone 7:24. The GT-R is the heaveist car by far that has gone under 7:40. 'Maybe' Mizuno actually knows what he's talking about?

Believe whatever you want.

 

Now that we've established that the 2012 GTR has softer suspension, not to mention 530 HP, I may add that now we're in the $85,000 price range. That will also afford you a nice, low mileage 2009 911 TT. If you compare those cars the GTR's speed advantage is even greater with the additional 50 HP over the '09 model. More boost and a softer suspension PLUS glossier paint nakes this a tougher decision but in my case I just got out of a Supra and I want prestige now instead of dealing with the typical ricer in an S2000 taking cellphone pics from behind me or asking if i can magically spool my 80mm turbo at a traffic light. I'm demented I know but all I want is attention from the older masses for christs sakes lol. Picture me rollin' in something flashy coming down the road like a white 997 TT with 21x13 / 20x10 wheels white/chrome while hearing oohs and aahs from the over 30 crowd as I approach the stoplight. This is America and I wanna have my cake and eat it too. I want flashy good looks and be able to go 60-130 in 3.5 seconds. I want a wife and a girlfriend too, both mute of course and I wanna have what I want and I want it now!

 

I can tell you that $85k is not getting you a nice low miles09 tt. All are asking high 90s and many dreamers are asking over 100k. I note that asking for a gtr is high 80's, not sure how negotiable they are. I'm still interested in the drive to decide. Also wonder if it is worthwhile to get a black series.

 

I've owned a Black Series, and 'probably' won't own another one. Not worth it IMO, and you don't get back the extra cost on resale.

 

The Black Series interior is atrocious with the red trim. No way I'd go that route. There are two 997 turbos with less than 20K miles on them for under $85,000 if you like silver (Which I dont) on cars.com... After looking at how much better the new 991 TT looks I dont think I could live with a 997 TT at this point. With the new 991 TT the car finally looks up to date instead of the venerable old look. The GTR is looking better and better BUT the '14 model is supposed to be revamped aesthetically. How sick is it that we have but two cars to choose from in the $75K range? LOL.

 

FYI; there will be zero exterior changes to the 2014 GTR. It also makes the same peak HP and TQ and weighs the same, but has a better midrange aong with some suspension improvements and ran a 7:19.1 around the 'ring. There will also be some interior improvements and two-tone options. Check out the 2014 GT-R video I posted in the GTR section last night.

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ml#post3680771

 

fewer looks = less envy
performance is still there in 997T, and the looks are classic
but if all you are worried about is who looks at your car, I suggest buying a Lambo

 

2012 does it in 2.8.

2013 is faster.

All that, and a useable trunk. And good enough ride height to live the rest of your life...