No the one I seized up was not a Tilton... Hopefully tech has evolved since then to keep this from happening on new setups. This was many years/cars ago, hard to remember the exact specs of the car at that exact time... either a Giken or Blitz twin plate clutch. 600-700 wheel torque on that set up? Launched without antilag, may have had a 2-step. I think BFG drag radials. Launch around 4800-5000 with slip to keep from bogging, shift to 2nd felt a little funny, 3rd gear locked out. Couldn't change into gears without shutting off the car, and in gear with the clutch pedal pressed in, the clutch did not disengage and the car would creep forward with the pedal pressed all the way down. Unseized it and went back again a week or 2 later to test and tune night thinking maybe it was a fluke and the same thing happened again. Took it all out went with carbon.
edit: now that Im thinking about it, I think I only started having issues after I went to drag radials and started to do burnouts to heat the tires before launch. Heat build up in clutch at burnout and then on launch was too much for it.
If people are interested perhaps we should all start a new thread to not clog rix's build to talk clutch materials and pro/cons...
thanks for the info. not looking to muddy the thread. im going to a tilton triple ceramettallic since the erp i have is hanging up at only 19 psi and 7000 rpm shifts. never heard of them welding the discs until now and dont want to make another clutch mistake. to expensive
so this wasnt a tilton but some other clutch? what was the torque level at when you launched it?
it was Spec and another manufacturer I forget now but the issue is basically the materials when they heat due to heavy slip and back then everyone just went to a carbon setup. It doesn't really have anything to do with a manufacturer or type of clutch rather materials used.
So I'm back with a little more news. That was a pretty energetic conversation about clutches above. I'll say this, there still is no clear cut "best clutch" for cars at this power level in my mind. I *think* I've got the best option in the Tilton, we'll see how it goes.
I've got ~500 street miles on it now. I tend to drive it on the weekends once or twice but haven't in the last couple of weeks due to working weekends. I've gotten a lot more used to driving it again, drivability is good and there are no alarms or warnings on the dash. The Syvecs drives the factory dash perfectly, it's really quite something. Starts/stops and general driving are pretty simple due to the clutch. I know everyone likes the light flywheels, but all I have to do is ease off the clutch smoothly and quickly and it will take off from a stop, you don't even need to touch the gas pedal.
I've also gotten to the point where I can find the floor when accelerating. That took me longer than you'd think . It's not for the feint of heart, I'm running around on ~1,000whp ethanol settings. Due to the flexfuel support I'm really running around 30-40% ethanol. That's really all I need for that power level. It can probably do it on 93 octane as well if pushed a little harder. On one occasion I took a friend out for a ride right before it turned hot and his sunglasses (which were on his face, covering his eyes) rode up his face and flew into the backseat when I hit the gas. I'd never seen that one before, got quite a good laugh out of it.
When I left off from my last post I was just getting ready to record some VBox numbers to go along with the dyno sheets. That turned into a bit of a problem because it promptly became unreasonably hot here in Texas. One day it was 72 degrees the next day it was 100. Then it stayed there unless it was wet outside.
I've waited long enough, so it's time to share some numbers. Here's what the initial dyno numbers looked like. Unfortunately no one seemed to think of making video, but I hope to fix that sometime soon with some higher boost pulls.
The first power pulls that were done were just on wastegate spring pressure of ~14psi.
711 to the wheels on wastegate spring pressure and 93 octane. That's pretty much what you'd get out of upgraded VTGs on e85(!)
I was having a pretty good day at this point, I started getting text messages with the dyno graphs. It was a fun day of guessing what the car would ultimately make. I had been hoping for at least 600whp on these settings, and it did 700. This is literally the least amount of boost the car can run without swapping springs in the wastegates.
Next we moved on to pushing pump gas a little. It actually made a little more than this on 93 on one of the pulls but I don't have a picture. It was 950+.
935whp pushing 93 octane a little. There was quite a bit left but I was really impressed with these results and if I'm going to lean on it a bit I want to do it with good fuel instead of pump gas.
We swapped over to Ethanol and did a few more pulls as well. This last sheet shows a few of the pulls.
The best pull was 1111 to the wheels. Quite an interesting number! We didn't turn things all the way up on the dyno, this was still relatively low boost.
I've been waiting until I hard more data, but it's been so hot lately I've put a few things on hold waiting for it to cool off a bit. The next big step is a trailer purchase so I can take it to Texas Invitational in October. I've also got some GT2 Spec HRE P40S wheels that I'm planning on outfitting with R888R tires when the 325/30/19 size becomes available. Rumor has it that they are coming soon.
I'm also planning on swapping from the old style TiAL BOVs that I have to the new style - they are supposed to be better for drivability. The standard Q BOV is really meant to open fully and expel as much air as possible in a drag racing situation. Part throttle, and reaction time really aren't the main design criteria. In speaking with the owner of Xona Rotor he pretty much convinced me I needed to go that route so I'm going to give it a shot. The QRJ supposedly excels at part throttle smoothness and is a very quick reacting valve in comparison. I'm looking forward to giving them a try.
Hopefully I'll be able to get some vBox numbers soon as it looks like the weather is considering letting off with some of the oppressively hot temperatures. I'd also like to get it back on the dyno and crank it up a bit to see what it will really do...
In speaking with the owner of Xona Rotor he pretty much convinced me I needed to go that route so I'm going to give it a shot. The QRJ supposedly excels at part throttle smoothness and is a very quick reacting valve in comparison. I'm looking forward to giving them a try.
So I'm back with a little more news. That was a pretty energetic conversation about clutches above. I'll say this, there still is no clear cut "best clutch" for cars at this power level in my mind. I *think* I've got the best option in the Tilton, we'll see how it goes.
I've got ~500 street miles on it now. I tend to drive it on the weekends once or twice but haven't in the last couple of weeks due to working weekends. I've gotten a lot more used to driving it again, drivability is good and there are no alarms or warnings on the dash. The Syvecs drives the factory dash perfectly, it's really quite something. Starts/stops and general driving are pretty simple due to the clutch. I know everyone likes the light flywheels, but all I have to do is ease off the clutch smoothly and quickly and it will take off from a stop, you don't even need to touch the gas pedal.
I've also gotten to the point where I can find the floor when accelerating. That took me longer than you'd think . It's not for the feint of heart, I'm running around on ~1,000whp ethanol settings. Due to the flexfuel support I'm really running around 30-40% ethanol. That's really all I need for that power level. It can probably do it on 93 octane as well if pushed a little harder. On one occasion I took a friend out for a ride right before it turned hot and his sunglasses (which were on his face, covering his eyes) rode up his face and flew into the backseat when I hit the gas. I'd never seen that one before, got quite a good laugh out of it.
When I left off from my last post I was just getting ready to record some VBox numbers to go along with the dyno sheets. That turned into a bit of a problem because it promptly became unreasonably hot here in Texas. One day it was 72 degrees the next day it was 100. Then it stayed there unless it was wet outside.
I've waited long enough, so it's time to share some numbers. Here's what the initial dyno numbers looked like. Unfortunately no one seemed to think of making video, but I hope to fix that sometime soon with some higher boost pulls.
The first power pulls that were done were just on wastegate spring pressure of ~14psi.
711 to the wheels on wastegate spring pressure and 93 octane. That's pretty much what you'd get out of upgraded VTGs on e85(!)
I was having a pretty good day at this point, I started getting text messages with the dyno graphs. It was a fun day of guessing what the car would ultimately make. I had been hoping for at least 600whp on these settings, and it did 700. This is literally the least amount of boost the car can run without swapping springs in the wastegates.
Next we moved on to pushing pump gas a little. It actually made a little more than this on 93 on one of the pulls but I don't have a picture. It was 950+.
935whp pushing 93 octane a little. There was quite a bit left but I was really impressed with these results and if I'm going to lean on it a bit I want to do it with good fuel instead of pump gas.
We swapped over to Ethanol and did a few more pulls as well. This last sheet shows a few of the pulls.
The best pull was 1111 to the wheels. Quite an interesting number! We didn't turn things all the way up on the dyno, this was still relatively low boost.
I've been waiting until I hard more data, but it's been so hot lately I've put a few things on hold waiting for it to cool off a bit. The next big step is a trailer purchase so I can take it to Texas Invitational in October. I've also got some GT2 Spec HRE P40S wheels that I'm planning on outfitting with R888R tires when the 325/30/19 size becomes available. Rumor has it that they are coming soon.
I'm also planning on swapping from the old style TiAL BOVs that I have to the new style - they are supposed to be better for drivability. The standard Q BOV is really meant to open fully and expel as much air as possible in a drag racing situation. Part throttle, and reaction time really aren't the main design criteria. In speaking with the owner of Xona Rotor he pretty much convinced me I needed to go that route so I'm going to give it a shot. The QRJ supposedly excels at part throttle smoothness and is a very quick reacting valve in comparison. I'm looking forward to giving them a try.
Hopefully I'll be able to get some vBox numbers soon as it looks like the weather is considering letting off with some of the oppressively hot temperatures. I'd also like to get it back on the dyno and crank it up a bit to see what it will really do...
Power looks good. Congrats!
If you have the .drf files, switch from MPH to RPM so people can see the spool. Dyno shops like to show MPH because it always reads higher. You will lose a few HP with RPM but it's better data to show people. Also, show your torque curve on the right hand panel.
What was your boost at 1111 WHP? It looks like the turbos are starting to pass their efficiency range.
If you have the .drf files, switch from MPH to RPM so people can see the spool. Dyno shops like to show MPH because it always reads higher. You will lose a few HP with RPM but it's better data to show people. Also, show your torque curve on the right hand panel.
What was your boost at 1111 WHP? It looks like the turbos are starting to pass their efficiency range.
'
23-24psi maybe? I'm not 100% sure. We're tuning more to torque output & turbo shaft RPM than boost. I'm keeping torque under 950 ft lbs to protect the transmission.
There was still 30-40k rpm of turbo shaft speed left, I think I'm going to add a couple pressure sensors to work out if it's the BBi exhaust choking things up or if it wants a larger turbine housing.
I do have the dyno files, I'll probably have to give it gearing information to get torque. Steve didn't have the right tach adapters for the dyno to read RPM with the M&W ignition. I've been meaning to do that but haven't gotten around to it yet.
What was your boost at 1111 WHP? It looks like the turbos are starting to pass their efficiency range.
Oh, I should mention that this pull was a case of overshooting the torque limits. It went up to ~1000 ft lbs for a little while and then came back down. That's what the odd shape of the curve is.
. It's not for the feint of heart, I'm running around on ~1,000whp ethanol settings. Due to the flexfuel support I'm really running around 30-40% ethanol. That's really all I need for that power level. It can probably do it on 93 octane as well if pushed a little harder. On one occasion I took a friend out for a ride right before it turned hot and his sunglasses (which were on his face, covering his eyes) rode up his face and flew into the backseat when I hit the gas. I'd never seen that one before, got quite a good laugh out of it.
