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Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch

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997 Turbo / GT2 2006Ė2012 Turbo discussion on the 997 model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo.

Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch

 
  #61  
Old 07-02-2018, 11:19 AM
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We can take the discussion off line, its like intercoolers...just run whatever you like right? best practice lol.

Since you enjoy the engineering and physics part, what I would suggest is study what is behind those cats ...compare that to some comments I made about losses. What that test shows you is the cat wasn't the limiting factor at that airflow...maybe nothing is maybe something else is.

My exhaust swapping experience was from full 3" BBi to my Kline 76mm/70mm combination Sam came up with I saw zero change in my datalogs. Back to back and even weeks later. I took easily 25 logs expecting to find something...honestly the car ran exactly the same fueling(BSFC), vane position, spool up time, etc...telling us pumping work was little to no change. My 60-100mph time was unchanged. I have not had the opportunity to play around with larger cats yet its something I have thought about of course just to keep the smell down (its not too bad TBH).

If I had a Europipe and was stretching power, 800+, I would just add bypass valves (not saying its needed, just my solution). Maybe this winter I'll make something with large cats, we will see. Based on your power targets today maybe just leave it alone. When you get the bug again then look at your options then.
 
  #62  
Old 07-02-2018, 12:10 PM
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I think we can meet the goals discussed 08. Then I will leave it up to you if you want to push any harder and if you want to compare any other data. You have a good system we will take her as far as we can with clean calibration. Cheers
 
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  #63  
Old 07-02-2018, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I think we can meet the goals discussed 08. Then I will leave it up to you if you want to push any harder and if you want to compare any other data. You have a good system we will take her as far as we can with clean calibration. Cheers
Looking forward to it Sam !!!!!

I am already assigning some time to visit the track at the end of this month . . . it has been a while since I have been there
 
  #64  
Old 07-02-2018, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by M3 Maestro View Post
We can take the discussion off line, its like intercoolers...just run whatever you like right? best practice lol.

Since you enjoy the engineering and physics part, what I would suggest is study what is behind those cats ...compare that to some comments I made about losses. What that test shows you is the cat wasn't the limiting factor at that airflow...maybe nothing is maybe something else is.

My exhaust swapping experience was from full 3" BBi to my Kline 76mm/70mm combination Sam came up with I saw zero change in my datalogs. Back to back and even weeks later. I took easily 25 logs expecting to find something...honestly the car ran exactly the same fueling(BSFC), vane position, spool up time, etc...telling us pumping work was little to no change. My 60-100mph time was unchanged. I have not had the opportunity to play around with larger cats yet its something I have thought about of course just to keep the smell down (its not too bad TBH).

If I had a Europipe and was stretching power, 800+, I would just add bypass valves (not saying its needed, just my solution). Maybe this winter I'll make something with large cats, we will see. Based on your power targets today maybe just leave it alone. When you get the bug again then look at your options then.
I like your idea about the bypass valves - kind of like a best of both worlds option

However at the end of the day I may just go the same route that you did now that I am trying to approach 700 whp with my new set up and run some good numbers at the track
 
  #65  
Old 07-03-2018, 06:37 AM
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Thanks for the explanation Maestro, please keep the info coming.

Just note that the expession full 3 inch X-pipe is somewhat misleading. In the centre of the X both pipes have to flow through just one 3 inch hole.
The cross section of one 3 inch pipe equals the cross section of two 2 1/8 inch pipes and that is restrictive.

As your previous exhaust was a 70mm system with stock tips then it was actually a 60mm system as the 60mm tips are the bottleneck.

We donít use HJS cats, Iím sorry. These HJS race cats are best for track use because the amount of precious metals is fairly low.
Emissions on the track arenít really important. Race cars with race cats in Europe over here donít even have O2 sensors.
 
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  #66  
Old 07-03-2018, 07:34 AM
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Stef your comments on the X cross section are accurate and quite common. Very few X pipes are done with enough area to accommodate the flow targets. I know of maybe 2-3 good examples.

So on the comparison with my BBi full 3" (I'm sure you are familiar with the design) to my 76/70mm Kline I could not pick out any difference in the data no matter how hard I tried at the specific airflow I was at the time(~600-630whp). The BBi is full 3" all the way back to the tips and the Kline yes as you point out ended at 60mm to allow for OEM tip use. I would have bet anyone I would have made less power on the Kline...the data proved me wrong, again at the airflow I was. Yes this is not laboratory type measurements here, its Cobb datalogs but even if there was a difference it was small enough the calibration was not adjusting for it AND my accel times were the same.

Now as you know...this just tell us look further upstream not in the tailpipe section. It could be both exhausts are X designs, it could be muffler design,etc. I haven't tried running exhaust dumps essentially to see how much more power we can squeeze out of it LOL.

Thanks for posting all your information as well.

There are a few good exhausts out there for this platform, take your pick guys From the 2 I tested, I chose Kline twice. If I could ever make it to a Porsche meet maybe I can check out the Europipe in person as well.
 
  #67  
Old 07-03-2018, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by M3 Maestro View Post
Stef your comments on the X cross section are accurate and quite common. Very few X pipes are done with enough area to accommodate the flow targets. I know of maybe 2-3 good examples.

So on the comparison with my BBi full 3" (I'm sure you are familiar with the design) to my 76/70mm Kline I could not pick out any difference in the data no matter how hard I tried at the specific airflow I was at the time(~600-630whp). The BBi is full 3" all the way back to the tips and the Kline yes as you point out ended at 60mm to allow for OEM tip use. I would have bet anyone I would have made less power on the Kline...the data proved me wrong, again at the airflow I was. Yes this is not laboratory type measurements here, its Cobb datalogs but even if there was a difference it was small enough the calibration was not adjusting for it AND my accel times were the same.

Now as you know...this just tell us look further upstream not in the tailpipe section. It could be both exhausts are X designs, it could be muffler design,etc. I haven't tried running exhaust dumps essentially to see how much more power we can squeeze out of it LOL.

Thanks for posting all your information as well.

There are a few good exhausts out there for this platform, take your pick guys From the 2 I tested, I chose Kline twice. If I could ever make it to a Porsche meet maybe I can check out the Europipe in person as well.
Maybe someone can chime in on this who has more engineering experience than I do (none) I am very curious about hos this X pipe thing works and why it is so restrictive - from this helpful chart it looks to me like it is fairly open and not so restrictive - maybe I am missing something ?






I also found a slightly different looking design here which looks interesting


 

Last edited by 08957; 07-03-2018 at 11:09 PM.
  #68  
Old 07-04-2018, 05:15 AM
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Oh no...you opened the flood gates Everyone who makes x pipes will jump in and non x pipe guys will take advantage as well

Super high level cause I want to jump off this bus already Basic trade offs. More blending = more exotic sound = more delta pressure and vice versa. Problem number 2 on this application is the tight u bends you end up needing to use for fitment there. Like I mentioned anything tighter than 1.5 R/D is getting lossy. Problem number 3 some x pipe designs on these cars have cheated radius cuts to make that u/x which is also lossy. Those are the basics.

I'm officially jumping off before the firestorm
 
  #69  
Old 07-04-2018, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by M3 Maestro View Post
Oh no...you opened the flood gates Everyone who makes x pipes will jump in and non x pipe guys will take advantage as well

Super high level cause I want to jump off this bus already Basic trade offs. More blending = more exotic sound = more delta pressure and vice versa. Problem number 2 on this application is the tight u bends you end up needing to use for fitment there. Like I mentioned anything tighter than 1.5 R/D is getting lossy. Problem number 3 some x pipe designs on these cars have cheated radius cuts to make that u/x which is also lossy. Those are the basics.

I'm officially jumping off before the firestorm
I really do not understand why something as old school - which has been around the normally aspirated V8 scene for decades would be so controversial here?

I am thinking that being a boosted system that is running with more pressure a lot of the assumptions that apply to N/A cars are less relevant to forced induction and x pipes?

Further - in my years and years of modification and tuning of turbo platforms most were inline engines. The only one not being a inline engine was the Subaru and they did not run any x pipes in Subaru as they were all single turbo

I certainly hope that my curiosity on this subject would not create a firestorm but then again I understand that people like you are motivated simply to gain knowledge and enhance their car's performance - I think it is when those with financial stakes in the game get involved that the heat gets turned up ?
 
  #70  
Old 07-04-2018, 11:56 AM
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BTW - I am looking to sell my EP1 with less than 200 miles in like new condition if anyone is interested let me know - my original plan did not include larger turbos and now that it does I am thinking to go bigger on the exhaust like EP2 - even though it may drone more
 
  #71  
Old 07-07-2018, 12:38 PM
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Making progress - old turbos out - they don't seem so wonderful anymore - lol
 
  #72  
Old 07-07-2018, 01:09 PM
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You are not floored by the technological wonder that Porsche marketing says they are?
 
  #73  
Old 07-07-2018, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by M3 Maestro View Post
You are not floored by the technological wonder that Porsche marketing says they are?
You have to really wonder why a car that retailed for $140,000 has such cheap plastic bypass valves and a Subaru WRX from 2002 and up that retailed for around $20,000 had such wonderful metal bov's that could be modified by smashing them with a rubber mallet to hold more boost ?


 
  #74  
Old 07-07-2018, 02:37 PM
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Yeah, but there's TWO of them....

Ed
 
  #75  
Old 07-07-2018, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by lliejk View Post
Yeah, but there's TWO of them....

Ed
I have to be honest and say that those el cheapo plastic diverter valves are the only part about my 997 I don't like I will have to give my friends at Forge a call on Monday and eliminate them
 

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