991 GT3 or C7 Z06?
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"- two cars will produce completely different times in comparison to each other with the same driver on different tracks. "
Stef, I respect your perspective ("buy what you want") but I don't understand your statement above at all. You mean two identical cars as in two 991 GT3's in same day with same driver on same track? I would say there is a difference in the setup of the cars (and poor quality control maybe) or that you are an inexperienced driver if you are getting more than a couple tenths deviation in that example. I have instructed at many tracks and can get in any two stock Viper, Vette or Porsche and turn laps within tenths of the same car (if tires match etc). The difference is usually minimal and relates to setup. I have driven all the tracks you mention many times and you are really saying that the avg Porsche driver isn't capable of replicating the same line, braking thresholds etc on a technical track. That is classic amateur racing and for sure, there are a lot of amateurs racing Porsches.
So more to the point is your comment that you don't consider the GT3 a track car. That's an incredible statement, given there are 16 versions of the 911 being sold now (not counting future special models like RS, GT2, etc) and the only one with specific track capability is the GT3. Is your opinion due to the deficiencies in the current iteration of the car? Or bcz you live in a rarified world surrounded by collector race cars? (I'm not judging just sayin that your perspective of this as a DD is perhaps not the 'avg'). That is where I feel the car is 'off it's path' in modern times. The Gt3 owners I associate with want a more trackworthy and faster car like the 4.0 and run with slicks and prefer a manual. "If it adds weight and not power, leave it off" is the general sentiment that seems to have been ignored by Porsche. The orig concept of the Gt3 was to make it unique (in 911 lineup) for its track prowess. That is still the concept right? Is it just marketing now? I am well aware (before you bring it up) that Porsche has built special GT3's to answer the call of greater speed at the track, and will likely offer an RS version.
Anyway, the RSR is a race car and a 'track car' after it becomes uncompetitive on the racing circuits, to the fortunate few. The rest of us think of our ACR's Z06's as track cars...most Gt3 owners think if them as track cars. Maybe I'm wrong. I am fortunate enough to spend many of my weekends at the track so my perspective is a as a track guy. I know guys want to drive to the track and home in their track cars, but that's not really going to yield the best lap times or quality experience at the track. Its a classic HPDE experience, which has merit in its own right, but I think the GT3 should play to a higher purpose. JMO. Even Walter Rohr says 'its a fast car, but you if you do a fast lap you can't necessarily feel like its you driving fast in it..'
Enjoy the GT3..I am sure its a great toy!
Stef, I respect your perspective ("buy what you want") but I don't understand your statement above at all. You mean two identical cars as in two 991 GT3's in same day with same driver on same track? I would say there is a difference in the setup of the cars (and poor quality control maybe) or that you are an inexperienced driver if you are getting more than a couple tenths deviation in that example. I have instructed at many tracks and can get in any two stock Viper, Vette or Porsche and turn laps within tenths of the same car (if tires match etc). The difference is usually minimal and relates to setup. I have driven all the tracks you mention many times and you are really saying that the avg Porsche driver isn't capable of replicating the same line, braking thresholds etc on a technical track. That is classic amateur racing and for sure, there are a lot of amateurs racing Porsches.
So more to the point is your comment that you don't consider the GT3 a track car. That's an incredible statement, given there are 16 versions of the 911 being sold now (not counting future special models like RS, GT2, etc) and the only one with specific track capability is the GT3. Is your opinion due to the deficiencies in the current iteration of the car? Or bcz you live in a rarified world surrounded by collector race cars? (I'm not judging just sayin that your perspective of this as a DD is perhaps not the 'avg'). That is where I feel the car is 'off it's path' in modern times. The Gt3 owners I associate with want a more trackworthy and faster car like the 4.0 and run with slicks and prefer a manual. "If it adds weight and not power, leave it off" is the general sentiment that seems to have been ignored by Porsche. The orig concept of the Gt3 was to make it unique (in 911 lineup) for its track prowess. That is still the concept right? Is it just marketing now? I am well aware (before you bring it up) that Porsche has built special GT3's to answer the call of greater speed at the track, and will likely offer an RS version.
Anyway, the RSR is a race car and a 'track car' after it becomes uncompetitive on the racing circuits, to the fortunate few. The rest of us think of our ACR's Z06's as track cars...most Gt3 owners think if them as track cars. Maybe I'm wrong. I am fortunate enough to spend many of my weekends at the track so my perspective is a as a track guy. I know guys want to drive to the track and home in their track cars, but that's not really going to yield the best lap times or quality experience at the track. Its a classic HPDE experience, which has merit in its own right, but I think the GT3 should play to a higher purpose. JMO. Even Walter Rohr says 'its a fast car, but you if you do a fast lap you can't necessarily feel like its you driving fast in it..'
Enjoy the GT3..I am sure its a great toy!
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 353
From: Atlanta
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So we seem to be at an impasse. Some of us love the new car others don't. We all agree the Z06 will be good but question it's feel and quality. Let's talk about solving the problem shall we? Would we all agree the gen 2 GT3 needs to be the following:
Same current setup plus adjustability like the 997.
Manual standard with the PDK as an option.
Crank the hp to 500 with a 4.0 liter version of the 91A motor.
918 seats & steering wheel (my wish)
Optional clubsport suspension (997 stiff) setup as an option.
Anything else? Sounds like the next RS to me.
Same current setup plus adjustability like the 997.
Manual standard with the PDK as an option.
Crank the hp to 500 with a 4.0 liter version of the 91A motor.
918 seats & steering wheel (my wish)
Optional clubsport suspension (997 stiff) setup as an option.
Anything else? Sounds like the next RS to me.
Last edited by FLAT6KING; Jan 25, 2014 at 06:29 PM.
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From: Fayetteville
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To some, the C6Z (and now even the base Stingray) garner serious attention (as you call it - 'wow' factor), and the 991 GT3 is just another 911 that looks the same for the past 30 years.
To others the 991 GT3 garners serious attention, and the C6Z (and perhaps in the future, the C7Z) is just another Chevy.
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 127
From: Colorado
Rep Power: 26
So we seem to be at an impasse. Some of us love the new car others don't. We all agree the Z06 will be good but question it's feel and quality. Let's talk about solving the problem shall we? Would we all agree the gen 2 GT3 needs to be the following:
Same current setup plus adjustability like the 997.
Manual standard with the PDK as an option.
Crank the hp to 500 with a 4.0 liter version of the 91A motor.
918 seats & steering wheel (my wish)
Optional clubsport suspension (997 stiff) setup as an option.
Anything else? Sounds like the next RS to me.
Same current setup plus adjustability like the 997.
Manual standard with the PDK as an option.
Crank the hp to 500 with a 4.0 liter version of the 91A motor.
918 seats & steering wheel (my wish)
Optional clubsport suspension (997 stiff) setup as an option.
Anything else? Sounds like the next RS to me.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 8,930
From: ga
Rep Power: 552
So we seem to be at an impasse. Some of us love the new car others don't. We all agree the Z06 will be good but question it's feel and quality. Let's talk about solving the problem shall we? Would we all agree the gen 2 GT3 needs to be the following:
Same current setup plus adjustability like the 997.
Manual standard with the PDK as an option.
Crank the hp to 500 with a 4.0 liter version of the 91A motor.
918 seats & steering wheel (my wish)
Optional clubsport suspension (997 stiff) setup as an option.
Anything else? Sounds like the next RS to me.
Same current setup plus adjustability like the 997.
Manual standard with the PDK as an option.
Crank the hp to 500 with a 4.0 liter version of the 91A motor.
918 seats & steering wheel (my wish)
Optional clubsport suspension (997 stiff) setup as an option.
Anything else? Sounds like the next RS to me.
Able to fit 18" wheels.
Ditch the rear wheel steering.
There is so e reason Porsche has forbidden the slicks. Either it's rws or the motor unable to handle the gforces. Hopefully it's just the rws, since there are 9A1 cars racing in lower classes. Rumors are that the rws won't come on the rs.
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 167
From: New York
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"- two cars will produce completely different times in comparison to each other with the same driver on different tracks. "
Stef, I respect your perspective ("buy what you want") but I don't understand your statement above at all. You mean two identical cars as in two 991 GT3's in same day with same driver on same track? I would say there is a difference in the setup of the cars (and poor quality control maybe) or that you are an inexperienced driver if you are getting more than a couple tenths deviation in that example. I have instructed at many tracks and can get in any two stock Viper, Vette or Porsche and turn laps within tenths of the same car (if tires match etc). The difference is usually minimal and relates to setup. I have driven all the tracks you mention many times and you are really saying that the avg Porsche driver isn't capable of replicating the same line, braking thresholds etc on a technical track. That is classic amateur racing and for sure, there are a lot of amateurs racing Porsches.
So more to the point is your comment that you don't consider the GT3 a track car. That's an incredible statement, given there are 16 versions of the 911 being sold now (not counting future special models like RS, GT2, etc) and the only one with specific track capability is the GT3. Is your opinion due to the deficiencies in the current iteration of the car? Or bcz you live in a rarified world surrounded by collector race cars? (I'm not judging just sayin that your perspective of this as a DD is perhaps not the 'avg'). That is where I feel the car is 'off it's path' in modern times. The Gt3 owners I associate with want a more trackworthy and faster car like the 4.0 and run with slicks and prefer a manual. "If it adds weight and not power, leave it off" is the general sentiment that seems to have been ignored by Porsche. The orig concept of the Gt3 was to make it unique (in 911 lineup) for its track prowess. That is still the concept right? Is it just marketing now? I am well aware (before you bring it up) that Porsche has built special GT3's to answer the call of greater speed at the track, and will likely offer an RS version.
Anyway, the RSR is a race car and a 'track car' after it becomes uncompetitive on the racing circuits, to the fortunate few. The rest of us think of our ACR's Z06's as track cars...most Gt3 owners think if them as track cars. Maybe I'm wrong. I am fortunate enough to spend many of my weekends at the track so my perspective is a as a track guy. I know guys want to drive to the track and home in their track cars, but that's not really going to yield the best lap times or quality experience at the track. Its a classic HPDE experience, which has merit in its own right, but I think the GT3 should play to a higher purpose. JMO. Even Walter Rohr says 'its a fast car, but you if you do a fast lap you can't necessarily feel like its you driving fast in it..'
Enjoy the GT3..I am sure its a great toy!
Stef, I respect your perspective ("buy what you want") but I don't understand your statement above at all. You mean two identical cars as in two 991 GT3's in same day with same driver on same track? I would say there is a difference in the setup of the cars (and poor quality control maybe) or that you are an inexperienced driver if you are getting more than a couple tenths deviation in that example. I have instructed at many tracks and can get in any two stock Viper, Vette or Porsche and turn laps within tenths of the same car (if tires match etc). The difference is usually minimal and relates to setup. I have driven all the tracks you mention many times and you are really saying that the avg Porsche driver isn't capable of replicating the same line, braking thresholds etc on a technical track. That is classic amateur racing and for sure, there are a lot of amateurs racing Porsches.
So more to the point is your comment that you don't consider the GT3 a track car. That's an incredible statement, given there are 16 versions of the 911 being sold now (not counting future special models like RS, GT2, etc) and the only one with specific track capability is the GT3. Is your opinion due to the deficiencies in the current iteration of the car? Or bcz you live in a rarified world surrounded by collector race cars? (I'm not judging just sayin that your perspective of this as a DD is perhaps not the 'avg'). That is where I feel the car is 'off it's path' in modern times. The Gt3 owners I associate with want a more trackworthy and faster car like the 4.0 and run with slicks and prefer a manual. "If it adds weight and not power, leave it off" is the general sentiment that seems to have been ignored by Porsche. The orig concept of the Gt3 was to make it unique (in 911 lineup) for its track prowess. That is still the concept right? Is it just marketing now? I am well aware (before you bring it up) that Porsche has built special GT3's to answer the call of greater speed at the track, and will likely offer an RS version.
Anyway, the RSR is a race car and a 'track car' after it becomes uncompetitive on the racing circuits, to the fortunate few. The rest of us think of our ACR's Z06's as track cars...most Gt3 owners think if them as track cars. Maybe I'm wrong. I am fortunate enough to spend many of my weekends at the track so my perspective is a as a track guy. I know guys want to drive to the track and home in their track cars, but that's not really going to yield the best lap times or quality experience at the track. Its a classic HPDE experience, which has merit in its own right, but I think the GT3 should play to a higher purpose. JMO. Even Walter Rohr says 'its a fast car, but you if you do a fast lap you can't necessarily feel like its you driving fast in it..'
Enjoy the GT3..I am sure its a great toy!
The Porsches were in the same class as the Vettes and the Vipers - Viper with 8 litres, Porsche with 4, Vette with.... Porsche did not have outright speed (the Vipers and Vettes pulled seriously on the straights) but did have the complete package - which includes how the car and its components work together and the resultant race integration – And while the Vipers and Vettes took the lead at various points during he race, we all knew that at the end of the day, the 911 had the best chance to win (tho the yellow flag did bring the Z4 with an 8 cylinder close).
The last point too makes the point - racing is not pure lap speed but race craft - meaning the best qualifier may not win many races (I am fortunate to own a few lap records around the country and also have won quite a few races these last few years - but I would never dare be an instructor, so props to you). The Z4 gave a run for the lead on the last laps but the 911 pilot was able to push hard and take chances -and place cars in between the BMW and it.
Love your car - whatever it may be - but street cars are not and will never be anything close to track cars - track your cars - have fun - but don't confuse a great street car that you can drive on a track with a track car – that includes the 991 GT3 as well as the Z06/7
Heck - the GT-R is faster around the track that either the 911 or Vette - and you can drive one on the track - it doesn't make it a track car
Just saying
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Love your car - whatever it may be - but street cars are not and will never be anything close to track cars - track your cars - have fun - but don't confuse a great street car that you can drive on a track with a track car – that includes the 991 GT3 as well as the Z06/7
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From: Florida
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Add to your list.
Able to fit 18" wheels.
Ditch the rear wheel steering.
There is so e reason Porsche has forbidden the slicks. Either it's rws or the motor unable to handle the gforces. Hopefully it's just the rws, since there are 9A1 cars racing in lower classes. Rumors are that the rws won't come on the rs.
Able to fit 18" wheels.
Ditch the rear wheel steering.
There is so e reason Porsche has forbidden the slicks. Either it's rws or the motor unable to handle the gforces. Hopefully it's just the rws, since there are 9A1 cars racing in lower classes. Rumors are that the rws won't come on the rs.
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 795
From: Poway , California
Rep Power: 63
Z06
Though impressed with the specs., I'm fairly sure that it won't have the tactility of the GT3 as has been the case with previous iterations. Hopefully it drives well on the road as a DD and for occasional track outings-since Chevy seems more supportive than others in this area. We need another great sports car value given Porsche's pricing direction. I'm looking forward to the reviews.
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Posts: 98
From: Florida
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Though impressed with the specs., I'm fairly sure that it won't have the tactility of the GT3 as has been the case with previous iterations. Hopefully it drives well on the road as a DD and for occasional track outings-since Chevy seems more supportive than others in this area. We need another great sports car value given Porsche's pricing direction. I'm looking forward to the reviews.
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The cheapest '95 Camry was $16,128 and the cheapest '14 is $22,235. The '95 price would be $24,653 on the BLS calculator.
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From: Poway , California
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I've heard this criticism before and it never sounded quite right. Porsche's have always been expensive. Without giving this a lot of research, I did a very quick check. In 1995, the beginning of the 993 era, the base price of a 911 Carrera was $59,990. Plugging that number into an online CPI calculator supplied by BLS shows the comparable purchasing power of that 1995 price in 2013 was $91,700. The current base price of a 911 C2 is $84,300. If Porsche's pricing philosophy has changed, it doesn't appear that it has occurred in the last two decades.
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That may be the case but compare the Cayenne and Panamra Turbo S with their competition and you may see a bit of a reach. I'm not sure I can justify well over $200k US for a 560hp 991 Turbo S. There are limits and better choices in my mind in that price range but some may not feel the same.