Driving advice
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1) Brake all you need to before the corner ONLY. If you have entered a corner to fast you will have to slow down in it but this is not an option for fast times.
2) Downshift heel/toe to keep rev's in line with engine speed so you NEVER use the engine to slow the car down. From 3rd to 2nd or from 5th to second it doesn't matter.
(learn this method on the street not on the track) If you slow the car just a little with the engine you've lost seconds in that corner. 10 corners in the track. you get the point.
3) excelerate out of the corner only when you car has stopped turning. Period. gas to soon equals wheel spin and loss of lots of time.
Believe me when done correctly, and I only do it about 65% of the time, your car will fly out of the corners. One day I hope to do it correct for 2 or 3 laps in a row.
That's it. Mitch stop using your engine to slow your car. It's wrong and hard on it.
Dead horse has risen.
2) Downshift heel/toe to keep rev's in line with engine speed so you NEVER use the engine to slow the car down. From 3rd to 2nd or from 5th to second it doesn't matter.
(learn this method on the street not on the track) If you slow the car just a little with the engine you've lost seconds in that corner. 10 corners in the track. you get the point.
3) excelerate out of the corner only when you car has stopped turning. Period. gas to soon equals wheel spin and loss of lots of time.
Believe me when done correctly, and I only do it about 65% of the time, your car will fly out of the corners. One day I hope to do it correct for 2 or 3 laps in a row.
That's it. Mitch stop using your engine to slow your car. It's wrong and hard on it.
Dead horse has risen.
Last edited by H20SKIER; Dec 3, 2007 at 01:07 AM.
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Mr 38'-off has nailed it!
Oh, and someone mentioned the gearbox as being used in compression braking. It's used in exactly the same way for accelerating as it is for braking; ie it's a "broker" in the transfer of power (it doesn't even care in which direction). Compression braking is bad for a gearbox in exactly the same way that accelerating is.
A gearbox is a ratio adjustment device from one shaft to another. Gearboxes are rated for a particular amount of torque. A gearbox designed for a car producing say 200lb/ft of torque, put into a situation where compression braking was generating in excess of this figure could cause problems (this is not a real-world concern, just academic). A gearbox provides a certain amount of power loss in the ratio adjustment that is very small and predictable, and it's the same whether the "input" is coming from the engine or the wheels.
I LOVE dead horse. Briande de Chevaux I think it was called on the menu. Darned delicious -- I highly recommend it!
Oh, and someone mentioned the gearbox as being used in compression braking. It's used in exactly the same way for accelerating as it is for braking; ie it's a "broker" in the transfer of power (it doesn't even care in which direction). Compression braking is bad for a gearbox in exactly the same way that accelerating is.
A gearbox is a ratio adjustment device from one shaft to another. Gearboxes are rated for a particular amount of torque. A gearbox designed for a car producing say 200lb/ft of torque, put into a situation where compression braking was generating in excess of this figure could cause problems (this is not a real-world concern, just academic). A gearbox provides a certain amount of power loss in the ratio adjustment that is very small and predictable, and it's the same whether the "input" is coming from the engine or the wheels.
I LOVE dead horse. Briande de Chevaux I think it was called on the menu. Darned delicious -- I highly recommend it!
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I wish, Half of ball if I'm having a good day only 
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1) Brake all you need to before the corner ONLY. If you have entered a corner to fast you will have to slow down in it but this is not an option for fast times.
2) Downshift heel/toe to keep rev's in line with engine speed so you NEVER use the engine to slow the car down. From 3rd to 2nd or from 5th to second it doesn't matter.
(learn this method on the street not on the track) If you slow the car just a little with the engine you've lost seconds in that corner. 10 corners in the track. you get the point.
3) excelerate out of the corner only when you car has stopped turning. Period. gas to soon equals wheel spin and loss of lots of time.
Believe me when done correctly, and I only do it about 65% of the time, your car will fly out of the corners. One day I hope to do it correct for 2 or 3 laps in a row.
That's it. Mitch stop using your engine to slow your car. It's wrong and hard on it.
Dead horse has risen.
2) Downshift heel/toe to keep rev's in line with engine speed so you NEVER use the engine to slow the car down. From 3rd to 2nd or from 5th to second it doesn't matter.
(learn this method on the street not on the track) If you slow the car just a little with the engine you've lost seconds in that corner. 10 corners in the track. you get the point.
3) excelerate out of the corner only when you car has stopped turning. Period. gas to soon equals wheel spin and loss of lots of time.
Believe me when done correctly, and I only do it about 65% of the time, your car will fly out of the corners. One day I hope to do it correct for 2 or 3 laps in a row.
That's it. Mitch stop using your engine to slow your car. It's wrong and hard on it.
Dead horse has risen.
So when you're braking, Are you suggesting that people hold the clutch in while dropping gears? or are you engaging the clutch after each downshift when speed permits to the next lowest gear?
If you're recommending the latter, Are you recommending doing as little compression braking as humanly possible or are you saying the engine doesn't aid you in slowing down out all when heel toeing?
I guess I'm just failing to see how you can NOT compression brake when dropping gears and heel/toeing.
And even with the best of pads, My brakes are puny in comparison to even a Boxsters, I don't see how I could rely solely on my disc brakes for too long without getting some serious brake fade. They don't cool down as quick or have the surface area that P-Cars have.
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If you drive with the correct technique and you find that you get brake fade, then I think you'll find upgrading your brakes to be a lot cheaper in the long run than replacing a failed engine....
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1) Brake all you need to before the corner ONLY. If you have entered a corner to fast you will have to slow down in it but this is not an option for fast times.
2) Downshift heel/toe to keep rev's in line with engine speed so you NEVER use the engine to slow the car down. From 3rd to 2nd or from 5th to second it doesn't matter.
(learn this method on the street not on the track) If you slow the car just a little with the engine you've lost seconds in that corner. 10 corners in the track. you get the point.
3) excelerate out of the corner only when you car has stopped turning. Period. gas to soon equals wheel spin and loss of lots of time.
2) Downshift heel/toe to keep rev's in line with engine speed so you NEVER use the engine to slow the car down. From 3rd to 2nd or from 5th to second it doesn't matter.
(learn this method on the street not on the track) If you slow the car just a little with the engine you've lost seconds in that corner. 10 corners in the track. you get the point.
3) excelerate out of the corner only when you car has stopped turning. Period. gas to soon equals wheel spin and loss of lots of time.
I think you're arguing semantics here Mitchel, but seriously...stop arguing about it until you get out on the track. No matter what you think you know, track driving and street driving are two different animals.
Point is, compression (engine) braking is going to be a result of unskilled driving. The better you get at your heel/toe, the more work that your brakes will do and less strain will be put on your engine and tranny.
Last edited by silversurfer; Dec 4, 2007 at 12:53 AM.
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You are who you are and I'm not in any position to argue with you. But I'm sure as hell going to ask for clarification / elaboration
So when you're braking, Are you suggesting that people hold the clutch in while dropping gears? or are you engaging the clutch after each downshift when speed permits to the next lowest gear?
As Britblaster said some is not bad and I stated that I really only do it a percentage of the time correct. The best don't touch the engine but my rev limiter hits coming hard into a corner all the time but mostly from a long blip.
If you're recommending the latter, Are you recommending doing as little compression braking as humanly possible or are you saying the engine doesn't aid you in slowing down out all when heel toeing?
Your brakes should slow the car. At the end of long straights get 90% of your braking done as you make your first down shift. BRAKES only. The balance of slow down should be the coasting into the corner only. This is where your last down shifts occur. The less braking done the faster you exit the corner. Every lap should be less brake and more speed into the corner. This directly translates into faster exit speeds. If you brake too hard or your engine slows and unsettles the car only one thing happens. You get passed.
I guess I'm just failing to see how you can NOT compression brake when dropping gears and heel/toeing.
Practice Practice Practice
And even with the best of pads, My brakes are puny in comparison to even a Boxsters, I don't see how I could rely solely on my disc brakes for too long without getting some serious brake fade. They don't cool down as quick or have the surface area that P-Cars have.
So when you're braking, Are you suggesting that people hold the clutch in while dropping gears? or are you engaging the clutch after each downshift when speed permits to the next lowest gear?
As Britblaster said some is not bad and I stated that I really only do it a percentage of the time correct. The best don't touch the engine but my rev limiter hits coming hard into a corner all the time but mostly from a long blip.If you're recommending the latter, Are you recommending doing as little compression braking as humanly possible or are you saying the engine doesn't aid you in slowing down out all when heel toeing?
Your brakes should slow the car. At the end of long straights get 90% of your braking done as you make your first down shift. BRAKES only. The balance of slow down should be the coasting into the corner only. This is where your last down shifts occur. The less braking done the faster you exit the corner. Every lap should be less brake and more speed into the corner. This directly translates into faster exit speeds. If you brake too hard or your engine slows and unsettles the car only one thing happens. You get passed.I guess I'm just failing to see how you can NOT compression brake when dropping gears and heel/toeing.
Practice Practice PracticeAnd even with the best of pads, My brakes are puny in comparison to even a Boxsters, I don't see how I could rely solely on my disc brakes for too long without getting some serious brake fade. They don't cool down as quick or have the surface area that P-Cars have.
I don't think it's brake fade because they are puny. if you drive a BMW than the weight of the car is it's problem. The Pro 3 cars ( i think they are called E30's ) weighh considerably less therefore the brakes that stop your bigger car works better on them. Late braking and quicker entry speeds =faster exits. This will beat the crap out of a big engine anyday of the week.This is the reason my little RS America can lap much quicker than most Turbo's.
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This thread is SO FUNNY!
Guys there are many different thoughts on being fast. What works on one car, might not work on another car. Then there are skill levels.
Ok, my little speal...
There are ONLY 3 states on the car
Acceleration, steady state, & breaking. No matter where you are, or what you are doing, it's one of the 3.
Trail braking, will make you much faster, but you NEED the skill level to do it. Same for getting on the throttle, nubies should only do it in a straight line, experienced people will start to roll on the throttle right before the apex.
Turning is all about "setting" the car. Once the car is set, you can accelerate. The whole thing is not to upset the "setting" of the car.
I don't care who you are, you trans brake. Unless you hold the clutch in, & pop it out to accelerate, you are trans braking. Any time you are not, in steady state, or accelerating. You are braking.
Yes, get all your shifts & slow the car down BEFORE entering the turn, & NEVER, NEVER push in the clutch, or jab the brakes mid turn, or entering the turn, this will have a bad outcome every time.
Lastly, in a MID-ENGINE car, NEVER, NEVER lift mid corner, you will swap ends.
Take it FWIW, I was an instructor, & have about 300 track days under my belt.
Guys there are many different thoughts on being fast. What works on one car, might not work on another car. Then there are skill levels.
Ok, my little speal...
There are ONLY 3 states on the car
Acceleration, steady state, & breaking. No matter where you are, or what you are doing, it's one of the 3.
Trail braking, will make you much faster, but you NEED the skill level to do it. Same for getting on the throttle, nubies should only do it in a straight line, experienced people will start to roll on the throttle right before the apex.
Turning is all about "setting" the car. Once the car is set, you can accelerate. The whole thing is not to upset the "setting" of the car.
I don't care who you are, you trans brake. Unless you hold the clutch in, & pop it out to accelerate, you are trans braking. Any time you are not, in steady state, or accelerating. You are braking.
Yes, get all your shifts & slow the car down BEFORE entering the turn, & NEVER, NEVER push in the clutch, or jab the brakes mid turn, or entering the turn, this will have a bad outcome every time.
Lastly, in a MID-ENGINE car, NEVER, NEVER lift mid corner, you will swap ends.
Take it FWIW, I was an instructor, & have about 300 track days under my belt.
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I agree with Stealth 993. Taking lessons from a pro helps a lot. Riding as a passenger with a pro driver works very will as you get to see his driving style and what lines he is using around the track like corners can be late apex or early apex and so on. As for heel and toe this will take some time to learn. You just have to do it as often as possible .
Compression braking you can use it going down hill but not on the race track
P.S. mitchelrl whenever you think you are perfect this is when you are very wrong there is always things to learn in life
Compression braking
you can use it going down hill but not on the race track P.S. mitchelrl whenever you think you are perfect this is when you are very wrong there is always things to learn in life
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<~~still practicing heel/toe. hope i'm doing it correctly!
btw....condorCGT
would you mind posting a pic or two of your car? looks beautiful in the avatar!
btw....condorCGT
would you mind posting a pic or two of your car? looks beautiful in the avatar!
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Listen to Mark, too.
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https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...d.php?t=103581
Search button for a reason.
Listen to Mark, too.
Search button for a reason.
Listen to Mark, too.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...d.php?t=102880
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Me 2 I am glad I found this part of 6speedonline its fun to read the post's here .