KA - In Memory of my Mom (Vincee) and best friend Michael J. Maring
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Originally Posted by sharkster
I understand. I really do. It's unfortunate that things went the way the did though. For something this big you honestly need a "project manager" type of person at a shop that really does the leg-wrok to put all the pieces of the puzzle together and make sure that all the different hands have what they need and when. Not an easy task I know.
You will get a laugh out of this one. I called S Car Go today asking if they recieved my heads from Protomotive. They said they told Protomotive to o-ring the heads and liners. I told him that I instructed Protomotive about a week ago last Friday to return my heads and liners because nothing had been done. They should have been back by now. I told S Car Go that I wanted my heads returned with no o-ringing. Rob said that the heads wouldn't take the pressure to which I told him 1.0 to 1.2 bar shouldn't be a problem. I told him to call Protomotive and tell Todd to return the heads without o-ringing as I directed earlier. I called Protomotive and left a message that I had not authorized any additional work and to please return the heads as I directed earlier.
I told Rob once the heads were returned to assemble the motor using the same TIAL turbo's and assembly that were on the motor when they bent the rods in February 2004.
It appears some people don't want to believe me when I tell them I lost interest due to schedules not being met. This car will be the only 996tt having a mega buck motor with medium size turbo's.
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Originally Posted by m42racer
Chad,
Sorry to hear about the delays. You are doing the right thing in moving the work. You know the old line, "if you want it done, give it to a busy man to do".
You are in good hands with Performance Developments. I went through many shops until I found PD. I'll never move. They do this sort of work all day every day, as they do everything in house. Full CNC machine shop/race engine build and design shop. They have been building Porsche 4 Valve water cooled engines since the late 80's. In fact they design and make many of their own parts for these engines. As you already know, they have designed and have made Cranks, Rods, Pistons, Liners, Cams etc, for the 996 and 997 engines. It was PD who made the Cams for the 996TT for Chad, when all of the other "Tuners" fitted Cup Exhaust Cams only. The Intakes were never changed as there was nothing out there to use.
For those here who have not heard of Performance Developments, watch this space now. They are unknown to the car owner. They make the engine parts and do alot of the specialized engine work for the shops that fit them.
I think you have fallen victim to those who cannot do this work in house themselves and have to rely upon others to do it for them. That can often take along time with special work. I cannot think of any other reason why it would take so long.
I hope you regain your enthusiasm for your project, for all of us to see the outcome.
Sorry to hear about the delays. You are doing the right thing in moving the work. You know the old line, "if you want it done, give it to a busy man to do".
You are in good hands with Performance Developments. I went through many shops until I found PD. I'll never move. They do this sort of work all day every day, as they do everything in house. Full CNC machine shop/race engine build and design shop. They have been building Porsche 4 Valve water cooled engines since the late 80's. In fact they design and make many of their own parts for these engines. As you already know, they have designed and have made Cranks, Rods, Pistons, Liners, Cams etc, for the 996 and 997 engines. It was PD who made the Cams for the 996TT for Chad, when all of the other "Tuners" fitted Cup Exhaust Cams only. The Intakes were never changed as there was nothing out there to use.
For those here who have not heard of Performance Developments, watch this space now. They are unknown to the car owner. They make the engine parts and do alot of the specialized engine work for the shops that fit them.
I think you have fallen victim to those who cannot do this work in house themselves and have to rely upon others to do it for them. That can often take along time with special work. I cannot think of any other reason why it would take so long.
I hope you regain your enthusiasm for your project, for all of us to see the outcome.
At this point I am going to take what I have, assemble it, and install the turbo's, headers, etc. that were on the car just prior to the rods being bent. It should be all but indestructable with that combination. It won't be setting any power records.
Originally Posted by cjv
sharkster,
You will get a laugh out of this one. I called S Car Go today asking if they recieved my heads from Protomotive. They said they told Protomotive to o-ring the heads and liners. I told him that I instructed Protomotive about a week ago last Friday to return my heads and liners because nothing had been done. They should have been back by now. I told S Car Go that I wanted my heads returned with no o-ringing. Rob said that the heads wouldn't take the pressure to which I told him 1.0 to 1.2 bar shouldn't be a problem. I told him to call Protomotive and tell Todd to return the heads without o-ringing as I directed earlier. I called Protomotive and left a message that I had not authorized any additional work and to please return the heads as I directed earlier.
I told Rob once the heads were returned to assemble the motor using the same TIAL turbo's and assembly that were on the motor when they bent the rods in February 2004.
It appears some people don't want to believe me when I tell them I lost interest due to schedules not being met. This car will be the only 996tt having a mega buck motor with medium size turbo's.
You will get a laugh out of this one. I called S Car Go today asking if they recieved my heads from Protomotive. They said they told Protomotive to o-ring the heads and liners. I told him that I instructed Protomotive about a week ago last Friday to return my heads and liners because nothing had been done. They should have been back by now. I told S Car Go that I wanted my heads returned with no o-ringing. Rob said that the heads wouldn't take the pressure to which I told him 1.0 to 1.2 bar shouldn't be a problem. I told him to call Protomotive and tell Todd to return the heads without o-ringing as I directed earlier. I called Protomotive and left a message that I had not authorized any additional work and to please return the heads as I directed earlier.
I told Rob once the heads were returned to assemble the motor using the same TIAL turbo's and assembly that were on the motor when they bent the rods in February 2004.
It appears some people don't want to believe me when I tell them I lost interest due to schedules not being met. This car will be the only 996tt having a mega buck motor with medium size turbo's.
I should have my car (3.8 GT800) done soon and that motor should be doing mid 700s to all four wheels at 23PSI so maybe that'd be enough for ya
See what you think....
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Originally Posted by sharkster
Ah bummer man. Sounds really frustrating I should have my car (3.8 GT800) done soon and that motor should be doing mid 700s to all four wheels at 23PSI so maybe that'd be enough for ya See what you think....
I should have my car (3.8 GT800) done soon and that motor should be doing mid 700s to all four wheels at 23PSI so maybe that'd be enough for ya See what you think....
Originally Posted by cjv
Well, with the same turbo's, headers, etc., our only difference from back in Feb. 04 will be the crank, pistons, valves, rods, oil pump, heads, coatings, cams, etc. I guess all the internals. The externals will be the same as back then.
I guess the real kicker is that you haven't been able to drive/enoy her in any real form for so long. And in that respect I totally understand you loosing patience/interest in the process. Anyways running at 1.2 bar should be just fine anyways.. it'll make plenty of power no?
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Originally Posted by m42racer
"Apparently, there is a disagreement between Performance Developments and S Car Go, regarding another job (unrelated to mine) that was impacting my project."
Base on what I read here, on how you have been treated by the 2 shops that were supposed to be doing the O ringing, I can figure what and where the above mentioned problem lies.
Chad, we have never talked but you are a gentleman with huge amounts of patience. Neil is also a gentleman who does what he says he will in a professional manner. You are in good hands my friend. I speak from personal experience. I hope to meet you one day and marvel over this amazing project.
Good luck.
Base on what I read here, on how you have been treated by the 2 shops that were supposed to be doing the O ringing, I can figure what and where the above mentioned problem lies.
Chad, we have never talked but you are a gentleman with huge amounts of patience. Neil is also a gentleman who does what he says he will in a professional manner. You are in good hands my friend. I speak from personal experience. I hope to meet you one day and marvel over this amazing project.
Good luck.
The past is the past. I don't need old issues affecting the present. I don't hold any ill will towards any of the tuners I have worked with. I simply want commitments met.
Last edited by cjv; Jul 11, 2007 at 08:29 PM.
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To be honest I am a little overwhelemed. To have come this far only to be given conflicting advise is to say the least interesting.
This all goes back to the cams, springs and o-ringing. Let me start with the cams. As many of you know there has been four views of this issue. Use the Porsche GT3 cams or cam, regrind the upper lobes of the 996tt cams, use the 996tt stock cam or design a new cam. I believe many remember me stating that we found alot of harmonic distortion in the stock cams and cams reground using stock profiles but increasinng the lifts.
Harmonic distortion is such an innocent sounding word.
Please bare in mind the following is my opinion based on tests and experience. Some tuners have successfully used the Porsche 996tt stock, GT3 cams, GT3 exhaust cams and hybrids of the Porsche cams. It appears the success was derived through the use of high valve spring pressures. Why you may ask? The answer appears to be to overcome the harmonic distortion found in the Porsche cam profiles when used with hydralic tappets and higher rpm's.
Case in point. Tuner A and B are working together. A is of the school of using Porsche cams with high spring pressures, the B uses engineered cams not requiring the high pressures. B assembles the heads for B based on his philosophy but does not opt for the cams that eliminate the HD. Well, you guessed it. It appears the two mixed philosophies resulted in a motor wiping out all the hydralic tappets. It appears either higher spring pressure or a cam designed to eliminate HD would have eliminated the problem. If B is correct, his theory would be the better way to go because the higher spring pressure just drastically accelerates wear on the valve guides and it appears the high spring pressures only masks an existing problem. On the other hand, B's theory has not been tested on a 996tt to my knowledge. My motor is designed around B's theory. B designed and built the cams and heads while A is assembling the rest of the motor.
More later.
This all goes back to the cams, springs and o-ringing. Let me start with the cams. As many of you know there has been four views of this issue. Use the Porsche GT3 cams or cam, regrind the upper lobes of the 996tt cams, use the 996tt stock cam or design a new cam. I believe many remember me stating that we found alot of harmonic distortion in the stock cams and cams reground using stock profiles but increasinng the lifts.
Harmonic distortion is such an innocent sounding word.
Please bare in mind the following is my opinion based on tests and experience. Some tuners have successfully used the Porsche 996tt stock, GT3 cams, GT3 exhaust cams and hybrids of the Porsche cams. It appears the success was derived through the use of high valve spring pressures. Why you may ask? The answer appears to be to overcome the harmonic distortion found in the Porsche cam profiles when used with hydralic tappets and higher rpm's.Case in point. Tuner A and B are working together. A is of the school of using Porsche cams with high spring pressures, the B uses engineered cams not requiring the high pressures. B assembles the heads for B based on his philosophy but does not opt for the cams that eliminate the HD. Well, you guessed it. It appears the two mixed philosophies resulted in a motor wiping out all the hydralic tappets. It appears either higher spring pressure or a cam designed to eliminate HD would have eliminated the problem. If B is correct, his theory would be the better way to go because the higher spring pressure just drastically accelerates wear on the valve guides and it appears the high spring pressures only masks an existing problem. On the other hand, B's theory has not been tested on a 996tt to my knowledge. My motor is designed around B's theory. B designed and built the cams and heads while A is assembling the rest of the motor.
More later.
Last edited by cjv; Jul 14, 2007 at 08:02 AM.
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Originally Posted by cjv
To be honest I am a little overwhelemed. To have come this far only to be given conflicting advise is to say the least interesting.
This all goes back to the cams, springs and o-ringing. Let me start with the cams. As many of you know there has been four views of this issue. Use the Porsche GT3 cams or cam, regrind the upper lobes of the 996tt cams, use the 996tt stock cam or design a new cam. I believe many remember me stating that we found alot of harmonic distortion in the stock cams and cams reground using stock profiles but increasinng the lifts.
Harmonic distortion is such an innocent sounding word. Please bare in mind the following is my opinion based on tests and experience. Some tuners have successfully used the Porsche 996tt stock, GT3 cams, GT3 exhaust cams and hybrids of the Porsche cams. It appears the success was derived through the use of high valve spring pressures. Why you may ask? The answer appears to be to overcome the harmonic distortion found in the Porsche cam profiles when used with hydralic tappets and higher rpm's.
Case in point. Tuner A and B are working together. A is of the school of using Porsche cams with high spring pressures, the B uses engineered cams not requiring the high pressures. B assembles the heads for B based on his philosophy but does not opt for the cams that eliminate the HD. Well, you guessed it. It appears the two mixed philosophies resulted in a motor wiping out all the hydralic tappets. It appears either higher spring pressure or a cam designed to eliminate HD would have eliminated the problem. If B is correct, his theory would be the better way to go because the higher spring pressure just drastically accelerates wear on the valve guides and it appears the high spring pressures only masks an existing problem. On the other hand, B's theory has not been tested on a 996tt to my knowledge. My motor is designed around B's theory. B designed and built the cams and heads while A is assembling the rest of the motor.
More later.
This all goes back to the cams, springs and o-ringing. Let me start with the cams. As many of you know there has been four views of this issue. Use the Porsche GT3 cams or cam, regrind the upper lobes of the 996tt cams, use the 996tt stock cam or design a new cam. I believe many remember me stating that we found alot of harmonic distortion in the stock cams and cams reground using stock profiles but increasinng the lifts.
Harmonic distortion is such an innocent sounding word.
Please bare in mind the following is my opinion based on tests and experience. Some tuners have successfully used the Porsche 996tt stock, GT3 cams, GT3 exhaust cams and hybrids of the Porsche cams. It appears the success was derived through the use of high valve spring pressures. Why you may ask? The answer appears to be to overcome the harmonic distortion found in the Porsche cam profiles when used with hydralic tappets and higher rpm's.Case in point. Tuner A and B are working together. A is of the school of using Porsche cams with high spring pressures, the B uses engineered cams not requiring the high pressures. B assembles the heads for B based on his philosophy but does not opt for the cams that eliminate the HD. Well, you guessed it. It appears the two mixed philosophies resulted in a motor wiping out all the hydralic tappets. It appears either higher spring pressure or a cam designed to eliminate HD would have eliminated the problem. If B is correct, his theory would be the better way to go because the higher spring pressure just drastically accelerates wear on the valve guides and it appears the high spring pressures only masks an existing problem. On the other hand, B's theory has not been tested on a 996tt to my knowledge. My motor is designed around B's theory. B designed and built the cams and heads while A is assembling the rest of the motor.
More later.
This on-going story continues to interest me greatly. I couldn't even imagine being put in your position, considering all motor work I have done, it has all been very simple and nothing really required complete modification; just a simple cam(s) switch, higher flow heads, built motor (not built by me), upper/lower intakes, blower/turbo, etc.... not in the same boat as you.
I will continue to read this thread, due to it is one of the best modification stories I have read in awhile. I hope everything will work out. Best of luck.
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Originally Posted by Zippy
Chad, If B's plan doesn't pan out and distortions are still present, wouldn't replacing the springs with higher pressure pieces fix the potential problem?
The distortions were eliminated with B. The question is at full tilt will the lifters be alright? I believe so as I a going with plan B.
But to answer your question. The only downside with higher pressure springs is the beating (wear) the guides and valve train take.
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Originally Posted by m42racer
Chad, to clarify my position, I had Tuner B build a 996TT engine for me. He also did one for a customer in Japan. Both ran great. I sold the car, but while I had it, I was very happy. No problems. I believe I had version "B" Cams along with the Japanese engine. These were for the 4.0L engine and the Solid Radius tappets. If there were to be any problems, they would have shown up with solids not hydraulics.
Did your's ?
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More later ............. continued.
Most people are aware that I wanted to o-ring the heads. This is kind of a long story. First of all, early attempts to o-ring one side only have resulted in blown head gaskets on some motors. A subsequent design uses two o-rings on the head side and one on the liner side. The head gaskets must still be used as the 996tt motor has water passages that must be dealt with.
Back to my attempt to have the work done. My heads were sent back east I believe in April 2007. The heads were suppose to be returned in May 2007. I called in May only to discover no work was started because they needed the liners. The liners were sent immediately and the work was to be done by June 23rd. I called after that date and discovered the work had not started. I requested the heads/liners be returned and they were after about 10 days and additional confusion.
You can appreciate now that I'm a little depressed and skeptical. I spoke with a shop on the West Coast. They said they could do the head and liner work for $495.00 (alot less than I was quoted by the other shop). I sent them the heads and liners. After they get these parts they request the head gaskets, liner housings and some additional parts. I ask why the additional part request and they said that in order to accurately locate the machined groves they required all these parts. What came to mind was why wasn't these parts requested by the other people.
I was also told it would cost a little more ........... the machine work was the same labor time but the fixturing of the heads was more time. My natural instincts questioned why the fixture time wasn't a known if the work has been done before. Their answer was they have done this type of work on many other type Porsche motors but not on a 996tt which is a little different. I'm thinking "Oh God ........... what am I getting into." I express my concerns and emphasize this motor could see 2.5 bar. Their reply was comforting as he said he didn't care if it saw 3 bar. His gaskets and work would be up to the task. 
Another interesting point is he only uses a single o-ring on each side and the o-ring material is designed to remove heat from the affected zone resulting in cooler head temperatures.
I'll let everyone know how things turn out in due time. Wish me luck.
Most people are aware that I wanted to o-ring the heads. This is kind of a long story. First of all, early attempts to o-ring one side only have resulted in blown head gaskets on some motors. A subsequent design uses two o-rings on the head side and one on the liner side. The head gaskets must still be used as the 996tt motor has water passages that must be dealt with.
Back to my attempt to have the work done. My heads were sent back east I believe in April 2007. The heads were suppose to be returned in May 2007. I called in May only to discover no work was started because they needed the liners. The liners were sent immediately and the work was to be done by June 23rd. I called after that date and discovered the work had not started. I requested the heads/liners be returned and they were after about 10 days and additional confusion.
You can appreciate now that I'm a little depressed and skeptical. I spoke with a shop on the West Coast. They said they could do the head and liner work for $495.00 (alot less than I was quoted by the other shop). I sent them the heads and liners. After they get these parts they request the head gaskets, liner housings and some additional parts. I ask why the additional part request and they said that in order to accurately locate the machined groves they required all these parts. What came to mind was why wasn't these parts requested by the other people.
I was also told it would cost a little more ........... the machine work was the same labor time but the fixturing of the heads was more time. My natural instincts questioned why the fixture time wasn't a known if the work has been done before. Their answer was they have done this type of work on many other type Porsche motors but not on a 996tt which is a little different. I'm thinking "Oh God ........... what am I getting into." I express my concerns and emphasize this motor could see 2.5 bar. Their reply was comforting as he said he didn't care if it saw 3 bar. His gaskets and work would be up to the task. Another interesting point is he only uses a single o-ring on each side and the o-ring material is designed to remove heat from the affected zone resulting in cooler head temperatures.I'll let everyone know how things turn out in due time. Wish me luck.
Last edited by cjv; Jul 15, 2007 at 09:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by cjv
More later ............. continued.
Most people are aware that I wanted to o-ring the heads. This is kind of a long story. First of all, early attempts to o-ring one side only have resulted in blown head gaskets on some motors. A subsequent design uses two o-rings on the head side and one on the liner side. The head gaskets must still be used as the 996tt motor has water passages that must be dealt with.
Back to my attempt to have the work done. My heads were sent back east I believe in April 2007. The heads were suppose to be returned in May 2007. I called in May only to discover no work was started because they needed the liners. The liners were sent immediately and the work was to be done by June 23rd. I called after that date and discovered the work had not started. I requested the heads/liners be returned and they were after about 10 days and additional confusion.
You can appreciate now that I'm a little depressed and skeptical. I spoke with a shop on the West Coast. They said they could do the head and liner work for $495.00 (alot less than I was quoted by the other shop). I sent them the heads and liners. After they get these parts they request the head gaskets, liner housings and some additional parts. I ask why the additional part request and they said that in order to accurately locate the machined groves they required all these parts. What came to mind was why wasn't these parts requested by the other people. I was also told it would cost a little more ........... the machine work was the same labor time but the fixturing of the heads was more time. My natural instincts questioned why the fixture time wasn't a known if the work has been done before. Their answer was they have done this type of work on many other type Porsche motors but not on a 996tt which is a little different. I'm thinking "Oh God ........... what am I getting into." I express my concerns and emphasize this motor could see 2.5 bar. Their reply was comforting as he said he didn't care if it saw 3 bar. His gaskets and work would be up to the task. Another interesting point is he only uses a single o-ring on each side and the o-ring material is designed to remove heat from the affected zone resulting in cooler head temperatures.
I'll let everyone know how things turn out in due time. Wish me luck.
Most people are aware that I wanted to o-ring the heads. This is kind of a long story. First of all, early attempts to o-ring one side only have resulted in blown head gaskets on some motors. A subsequent design uses two o-rings on the head side and one on the liner side. The head gaskets must still be used as the 996tt motor has water passages that must be dealt with.
Back to my attempt to have the work done. My heads were sent back east I believe in April 2007. The heads were suppose to be returned in May 2007. I called in May only to discover no work was started because they needed the liners. The liners were sent immediately and the work was to be done by June 23rd. I called after that date and discovered the work had not started. I requested the heads/liners be returned and they were after about 10 days and additional confusion.
You can appreciate now that I'm a little depressed and skeptical. I spoke with a shop on the West Coast. They said they could do the head and liner work for $495.00 (alot less than I was quoted by the other shop). I sent them the heads and liners. After they get these parts they request the head gaskets, liner housings and some additional parts. I ask why the additional part request and they said that in order to accurately locate the machined groves they required all these parts. What came to mind was why wasn't these parts requested by the other people.
I was also told it would cost a little more ........... the machine work was the same labor time but the fixturing of the heads was more time. My natural instincts questioned why the fixture time wasn't a known if the work has been done before. Their answer was they have done this type of work on many other type Porsche motors but not on a 996tt which is a little different. I'm thinking "Oh God ........... what am I getting into." I express my concerns and emphasize this motor could see 2.5 bar. Their reply was comforting as he said he didn't care if it saw 3 bar. His gaskets and work would be up to the task. Another interesting point is he only uses a single o-ring on each side and the o-ring material is designed to remove heat from the affected zone resulting in cooler head temperatures.I'll let everyone know how things turn out in due time. Wish me luck.
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Originally Posted by joetwint
Chad,the question I would have is given the long studs and minimal torque specs (55lbs)on a 996 turbo....... can the studs handle the boost pressures you are looking to run without the heads lifting or the studs stretching?I don't think the o-ringing will be a problem if done right,but what do I know.I genuinely wish you good luck and would like to see your car running after such a long time.
We have addressed that issue, weather it is sufficiently addressed will remain to be seen. ARP makes some studs that are a bit better than the OME ones. In addition we used the old trick of drilling out the case holes, adding an insert and using a couple mm larger threads. This technique was used on older Porsche motors that had head stud issues. The new studs in addition to the larger surface area allows us to raise the torque to just under 85 pounds. Aside from this, assembly is extremely important, washers must be checked for flatness and lubricated correctly to avoid friction. But more important, we use a computerized torque wrench that slowly tightens to exactly the numbers we enter. Every stud torqued to exactly the same poundage. Proper torqueing rotation is also extremely important.
Will it work? I believe it will. I'd also love to see it running. Only 7000 miles in seven years and about 4000 of them on the dyno.
Last edited by cjv; Jul 16, 2007 at 12:46 PM.
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Geez Chad, sorry to hear the turns this project has taken. I have enjoyed speaking with you on the phone and reading about the car for years now...
At this point do what makes you happy. If that means the car sitting somewhere collecting dust and you driving the Merc. around
then so be it!! (or one of the other many unreal cars I have been told you have ).
Evan
At this point do what makes you happy. If that means the car sitting somewhere collecting dust and you driving the Merc. around
then so be it!! (or one of the other many unreal cars I have been told you have ).Evan