Tuner Loyalties
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Tuner Loyalties
When I owned my 996TT, I was subjected to an endless array of substandard service by several different tuners. In fact, certain "lapses in service" were so egregious as to constitute outright misconduct by the tuner. I often received inaccurate and conflicting information about the status of my car. Other times, my inquires were ignored and the tuner was non-responsive for extended periods. The parade of excuses was mind-numbing. These experiences were not unique to one particular tuner. To the contrary, I experienced multiple "lapses in service" with almost every tuner I ever dealt with. In fact, the tuning experience was so intensely frustrating that it substantially contributed to my decision to sell my car.
Based on the foregoing, one would assume that my posting history on this forum would be replete with tales of tuner acrimony and substandard service. Not so. To the contrary, I refrained from publicly disclosing my tribulations. I bit my tongue and kept quiet. I let tuners get away with countless misdeeds without so much as a hint of trouble in the public domain. I allowed my tuners' skeletons to remain hidden deep in their closets.
Am I alone? Am I the only one here that has been subjected to tuner misdeeds and substandard service, without public disclosure? Is everyone else receiving exemplary service, free of shortfalls, poor performance or other missteps? The answer my friends is absolutely, unequivocally no!!!!!
I repeatedly hear about lapses in service, substandard service, and completely unacceptable conduct undertaking by most, if not all, of the marquee tuners patronizing this forum. These anecdotes are shared with me privately, but rarely make it into the public domain. The victims of these shortfalls elect, like me, to refrain from going public. They permit these skeletons to remain in the closet, beyond the peering eyes of future customers.
So why is it that so many of us are so reluctant to reveal the substandard service and/or shortfalls of the tuners we patronize. I believe the answer is two fold.
First, when we patronize a particular tuner, we become beholden to that tuner. We rely on the tuner to finish our job in a timely manner and, thereafter, to back-up his parts and labor, to honor his warranty, and to take care of our upgrades on a going forward basis. Moreover, many car owners do not have multiple options in terms of who will work on their car. For example, geographical considerations often compel the patronage of one particular tuner. Consequently, none of us want to **** off our tuner and risk delaying completion, or losing access to their services after the work is done. None of us want to risk loss of our warranty and/or after-care. We want to remain in the good graces of our tuner, so that he will take care of us as the need arises. Therefore, we remain quiet and suck it up, so as to maintain an acceptable working relationship with our tuner. We do not disclose lapses publicly because we know our tuner will be upset and we cannot risk such a riff with our tuner. We are, in essence, indentured servants of our tuners. We are beholden to them. Isn't it ironic that we are the customers and, yet, we are the ones treating our tuners with kid gloves.
Second, none of us want to admit that we may have made a poor decision when selecting a tuner. To the contrary, we all want to believe, and equally important, we want others to believe, that the tuner working on our car is the absolute best in the business, hands down, bar none. We want our tuner to be well perceived in the community because public perception of our car is directly and inextricably linked to public perception of our tuner. For example, if public perception of a particular tuner is negative, any car built by that tuner carries the negative stigma. Conversely, if a tuner is well perceived in the public eye, cars built by that tuner benefit from the positive perception. Therefore, each of us have a vested interest in promoting the public perception of our particular tuners. The posting of negative experiences would contravene that interest. Therefore, in order to elevate the status of our own cars, we seek to elevate the status of the tuner building our cars, and we conceal negative information about the tuner in order to achieve that purpose.
These opinions are neither speculation, nor mine alone, but rather, an amalgamation of the opinions and experiences of many different car enthusiasts. The skeletons are there folks – every one of the tuners here has them. I hear about them multiple times a week. Unfortunately, full public disclosure is inhibited because of overriding tuner loyalties and fear of reprisal. Fortunately, I am no longer beholden to any tuner. I am free from the shackles. It’s a great feeling!!!
Regards,
Craig
Based on the foregoing, one would assume that my posting history on this forum would be replete with tales of tuner acrimony and substandard service. Not so. To the contrary, I refrained from publicly disclosing my tribulations. I bit my tongue and kept quiet. I let tuners get away with countless misdeeds without so much as a hint of trouble in the public domain. I allowed my tuners' skeletons to remain hidden deep in their closets.
Am I alone? Am I the only one here that has been subjected to tuner misdeeds and substandard service, without public disclosure? Is everyone else receiving exemplary service, free of shortfalls, poor performance or other missteps? The answer my friends is absolutely, unequivocally no!!!!!
I repeatedly hear about lapses in service, substandard service, and completely unacceptable conduct undertaking by most, if not all, of the marquee tuners patronizing this forum. These anecdotes are shared with me privately, but rarely make it into the public domain. The victims of these shortfalls elect, like me, to refrain from going public. They permit these skeletons to remain in the closet, beyond the peering eyes of future customers.
So why is it that so many of us are so reluctant to reveal the substandard service and/or shortfalls of the tuners we patronize. I believe the answer is two fold.
First, when we patronize a particular tuner, we become beholden to that tuner. We rely on the tuner to finish our job in a timely manner and, thereafter, to back-up his parts and labor, to honor his warranty, and to take care of our upgrades on a going forward basis. Moreover, many car owners do not have multiple options in terms of who will work on their car. For example, geographical considerations often compel the patronage of one particular tuner. Consequently, none of us want to **** off our tuner and risk delaying completion, or losing access to their services after the work is done. None of us want to risk loss of our warranty and/or after-care. We want to remain in the good graces of our tuner, so that he will take care of us as the need arises. Therefore, we remain quiet and suck it up, so as to maintain an acceptable working relationship with our tuner. We do not disclose lapses publicly because we know our tuner will be upset and we cannot risk such a riff with our tuner. We are, in essence, indentured servants of our tuners. We are beholden to them. Isn't it ironic that we are the customers and, yet, we are the ones treating our tuners with kid gloves.
Second, none of us want to admit that we may have made a poor decision when selecting a tuner. To the contrary, we all want to believe, and equally important, we want others to believe, that the tuner working on our car is the absolute best in the business, hands down, bar none. We want our tuner to be well perceived in the community because public perception of our car is directly and inextricably linked to public perception of our tuner. For example, if public perception of a particular tuner is negative, any car built by that tuner carries the negative stigma. Conversely, if a tuner is well perceived in the public eye, cars built by that tuner benefit from the positive perception. Therefore, each of us have a vested interest in promoting the public perception of our particular tuners. The posting of negative experiences would contravene that interest. Therefore, in order to elevate the status of our own cars, we seek to elevate the status of the tuner building our cars, and we conceal negative information about the tuner in order to achieve that purpose.
These opinions are neither speculation, nor mine alone, but rather, an amalgamation of the opinions and experiences of many different car enthusiasts. The skeletons are there folks – every one of the tuners here has them. I hear about them multiple times a week. Unfortunately, full public disclosure is inhibited because of overriding tuner loyalties and fear of reprisal. Fortunately, I am no longer beholden to any tuner. I am free from the shackles. It’s a great feeling!!!
Regards,
Craig
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Craig,
Great Post, you are not alone!
What is it about 99% of the forum members here keeping their mouths shut? I for one am one of them and have had horrible experiences with several tuners, being ripped off, lied to and worst of all not getting what I paid for.
I am sure there are many stories to be told, however in saying that we will only read a few here and there.
Great Post, you are not alone!
What is it about 99% of the forum members here keeping their mouths shut? I for one am one of them and have had horrible experiences with several tuners, being ripped off, lied to and worst of all not getting what I paid for.
I am sure there are many stories to be told, however in saying that we will only read a few here and there.
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It would be nice to know which tuners to stay away from. I think another
reason guys don't say anything is because sooner or later they have to
sell their car and don't don't want any bad press on their upgrades.
RD
reason guys don't say anything is because sooner or later they have to
sell their car and don't don't want any bad press on their upgrades.
RD
Craig, Well said.
We all want to believe that for "$XXXXX" investment, that we got "the best" setup. We want to believe that we have the "smartest" guy, and often we assume that that ONE PERSON has the ONLY formula.
Some of this has to do with the tuner we work with. There is a TON of A-type personality in this forum, and in the Porsche tuning world, and that personality/ego/ whatever you want to call it, is part of the problem.
Let me give a good example of a "bad deal" that ended WELL:
Lufteknic is a shop local to me and popular with porsche-files in my region. I called them up last spring and got an "over the phone estimate" for a LWFW/Clutch kit. I told them of my configuration and got the "sales pitch" on their GIAC "gold standard" tune, and why it was great! I listened, thought "great, but I already HAVE this UMW setup and I'm not changing horses mid-stream."
About 2 weeks later they get the car and swap the clutch for me at the pre-determined price. I head off to the Zone2 event 2 weeks later and the clutch is not holding. I spend the weekend managing clutch slip and focusing on my "line". After the event I take the car back to them and they are clueless as to why the clutch wont' hold. It's afterall what they use on their "Gold standard" setup...
Here is where I give tuners and Indy shops a bit of a pass... Every swinging dick who drives a turbo claims their car is making XYZpower because that's what they've been told. Indy shops and vendors/ tuners hear this stuff ALL DAY LONG from potential customers. It is no wonder we have such confusion in the market place. So when I told these guys that I was "probably" making 530WHP with even more WHEEL torque, they were skepticle. It turned out, they were wrong. Eventually, after eating the labor on two more clutch setups, they finally put the right clutch in, the one KEVIN at UMW recommended... Kevin took time out of his own schedule and away from customers who've spent way more than I, to help MY INDY sort out MY clutch needs...
In the end Robert at Lufteknic told me "We now have a better relationship because I know that if you say XYZ, I know to listen to you and not assume you're a normal customer." He also admitted that the car I have is maknig more power than any TT he's ever driven on the street, including ANY TT he's had roll out of his shop. Robert was so bothered about this "street car power" that he sent me a two page email warning of parts to keep an eye on and mods needed to make this car bulletproof for continued use as I'd planned.
Did we have tense moments? Sure. I have some painful email traffic between Kevin and I. I also have some fond memories of phone calls between myself and Kevin, and Myself and Robert. It's why Robert has my car right now. ANd it's also why I'll work with Kevin in the future.
We often get impatient, start to lose focus, wonder if we've been sold a bill of goods, and sometimes let our own egos get in the way of doing what's right. It's a relationship that requires great communication of expectation, details, and deliverables. You have to communicate what you expect, and then HEAR and LISTEN when a tuner or Indy tells you what it will take to meet your goals.
I believe there are guys who are wanting to just make a buck, and guys who truly do want to deliver service and build a long lasting relationship. Those guys who I have that relationship with, some are competitors here, know that I'll give them valuable feedback, and I will NOT hammer them on the public board. Work it out offline and get to a mutually beneficial place, and above all, be man enough to admit when you were a Jack-***... Because in the end, there's always three sides to a story...
Mike
We all want to believe that for "$XXXXX" investment, that we got "the best" setup. We want to believe that we have the "smartest" guy, and often we assume that that ONE PERSON has the ONLY formula.
Some of this has to do with the tuner we work with. There is a TON of A-type personality in this forum, and in the Porsche tuning world, and that personality/ego/ whatever you want to call it, is part of the problem.
Let me give a good example of a "bad deal" that ended WELL:
Lufteknic is a shop local to me and popular with porsche-files in my region. I called them up last spring and got an "over the phone estimate" for a LWFW/Clutch kit. I told them of my configuration and got the "sales pitch" on their GIAC "gold standard" tune, and why it was great! I listened, thought "great, but I already HAVE this UMW setup and I'm not changing horses mid-stream."
About 2 weeks later they get the car and swap the clutch for me at the pre-determined price. I head off to the Zone2 event 2 weeks later and the clutch is not holding. I spend the weekend managing clutch slip and focusing on my "line". After the event I take the car back to them and they are clueless as to why the clutch wont' hold. It's afterall what they use on their "Gold standard" setup...
Here is where I give tuners and Indy shops a bit of a pass... Every swinging dick who drives a turbo claims their car is making XYZpower because that's what they've been told. Indy shops and vendors/ tuners hear this stuff ALL DAY LONG from potential customers. It is no wonder we have such confusion in the market place. So when I told these guys that I was "probably" making 530WHP with even more WHEEL torque, they were skepticle. It turned out, they were wrong. Eventually, after eating the labor on two more clutch setups, they finally put the right clutch in, the one KEVIN at UMW recommended... Kevin took time out of his own schedule and away from customers who've spent way more than I, to help MY INDY sort out MY clutch needs...
In the end Robert at Lufteknic told me "We now have a better relationship because I know that if you say XYZ, I know to listen to you and not assume you're a normal customer." He also admitted that the car I have is maknig more power than any TT he's ever driven on the street, including ANY TT he's had roll out of his shop. Robert was so bothered about this "street car power" that he sent me a two page email warning of parts to keep an eye on and mods needed to make this car bulletproof for continued use as I'd planned.
Did we have tense moments? Sure. I have some painful email traffic between Kevin and I. I also have some fond memories of phone calls between myself and Kevin, and Myself and Robert. It's why Robert has my car right now. ANd it's also why I'll work with Kevin in the future.
We often get impatient, start to lose focus, wonder if we've been sold a bill of goods, and sometimes let our own egos get in the way of doing what's right. It's a relationship that requires great communication of expectation, details, and deliverables. You have to communicate what you expect, and then HEAR and LISTEN when a tuner or Indy tells you what it will take to meet your goals.
I believe there are guys who are wanting to just make a buck, and guys who truly do want to deliver service and build a long lasting relationship. Those guys who I have that relationship with, some are competitors here, know that I'll give them valuable feedback, and I will NOT hammer them on the public board. Work it out offline and get to a mutually beneficial place, and above all, be man enough to admit when you were a Jack-***... Because in the end, there's always three sides to a story...
Mike
Last edited by Mikelly; Nov 11, 2008 at 06:33 AM.
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I have never received what I would consider "lapses in service" from my tuner. My only complaint would be that a large number of extra charges that while small individually generally make their way into and thus add quite a bit extra to my final bill.
You are correct, Craig that I never say anything about the parade of extra small charges because by that point we are actually tuning my car and at that juncture I don't want to be on my tuners bad side.
Furthermore, the work is almost always excellent so I justify the expense for the quality.
There may be a bit of cognitive dissonance/rationalization on my part I will admit.
You are correct, Craig that I never say anything about the parade of extra small charges because by that point we are actually tuning my car and at that juncture I don't want to be on my tuners bad side.
Furthermore, the work is almost always excellent so I justify the expense for the quality.
There may be a bit of cognitive dissonance/rationalization on my part I will admit.
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good post
my bad experiences are limited to other porsches not the 996tt, but after having it, I did post it in that forum and laid it all out for everyone to see. I will not pull punches. If I am wronged I will make sure everyone knows, but before that I will make sure it wasn't my fault, because the operator can be as much to blame as the tuner for lots of things that happen.
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Fantastic Post and agree with you for once Kevin... but I said this a long long time ago... the problem is... this forum is a cash cow for businesses and IMHO not a public forum.
I so wanted to see a separate business section and look it's happened!
I so wanted to see a separate business section and look it's happened!
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If you are talking about using a "premium" tuner as in "you get what you
pay for", I can point out a few "premium" tuners on the Viper side that get
a lot of free good press these days that screwed quite a few guys in the
past to the point that their name can't even be mentioned on the forum.
As I have always said, it's good to know the history of anybody you are
paying to mod your car, even if it hurts their p..ah feelings.
RD
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Well, I don't know much of what happens in the rest of the tuner world, but if some tune caused my motor to blow and they offered me a labor free new build, head porting and cost on parts, I might refrain from dragging their name through the mud
"I would suspect a lot of that happens everywhere. Call it equipment failure or user error and we'll fix it for free, just don't blame us...."
"I would suspect a lot of that happens everywhere. Call it equipment failure or user error and we'll fix it for free, just don't blame us...."