Blown motor pics.
the thing is i listen to the engine builders who actually build these engines to 1000 hp and more. the engine builder who holds the world record for the standing mile for porsches at 235 mph. the engine builder who builds a 1700 awhp motor that runs 219 in the half mile.the engine builder that has 4 builds over 1000 hp and designs and fabricates everything he needs in house. not the guy who has never built a motor in his life except on paper.
why spend any money on a motor part that has since 2001 been bulletproof in its ability to handle huge power? to get a few more hp? what bearings are you going to use ? there are only the stock parts available without having custom sets made.are you going to make these?
why spend any money on a motor part that has since 2001 been bulletproof in its ability to handle huge power? to get a few more hp? what bearings are you going to use ? there are only the stock parts available without having custom sets made.are you going to make these?
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Honestly, you might be in a very good position to help the OP. He's trying to get a pretty badly damaged engine back together and could use parts on a budget. If you scroll back you can see the carnage that's caused so much controversy and find out just what he needs in the way of parts. He's got engine cases sourced, rods, a crank, and his heads seemed to have mostly survived. But he likely could use any help possible at finding stuff that won't bankrupt him including an oil pump as his ingested metal. Since you do builds perhaps you've got some things laying around that mug be useful?
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Slow down my friend. The last thing these engines need is knife edged counterweights. Knife edged cranks serve no purpose in reliability. In fact, the opposite.
These engines need more basic features added to the stock crank, especially as they have narrow journals.
No custom bearings either, but they certainly would do better with a better bearing construction. If you just slowed down and listened you may learn something.
Understand that its not all about huge numbers and the "best" engine builder is the one who build the most power. Big numbers mean absolutely nothing. Especially on the internet and with a Turbocharger. I know, being there done that back in the 80's. In fact, back then the engines were a lot less technical, Turbochargers were in their infancy, electronic controls were eprom based, and no VVT control. Today you have it easy. And we had to make them last for 2 hours at full power. Its from this experience I gained the knowledge of what is possible and looking at the stock Porsche parts, there is a lot that can be done. You have to make up your own mind if its important. In your case it appears you have.
Making engines last, producing performance without the aid of a Turbocharger and managing the losses involved is a lot harder to do. You should feel thankful you have a turbo to make power.
BTW, have you ever taken the time to look at the construction of the factory bearing. How its made and what in consist of? All very necessary elements of building high performance engines. Unfortunately it is often taken for granted. Ever wondered why the materials used in the factory bearings appear to be inferior to many other bearings?
No its not about knife edging the counterweights, nor custom made bearings. Its about understanding what is going on at the bearing regardless of what bearing is used and how to help. Simple basic mods to the crankshaft that will help.
These engines need more basic features added to the stock crank, especially as they have narrow journals.
No custom bearings either, but they certainly would do better with a better bearing construction. If you just slowed down and listened you may learn something.
Understand that its not all about huge numbers and the "best" engine builder is the one who build the most power. Big numbers mean absolutely nothing. Especially on the internet and with a Turbocharger. I know, being there done that back in the 80's. In fact, back then the engines were a lot less technical, Turbochargers were in their infancy, electronic controls were eprom based, and no VVT control. Today you have it easy. And we had to make them last for 2 hours at full power. Its from this experience I gained the knowledge of what is possible and looking at the stock Porsche parts, there is a lot that can be done. You have to make up your own mind if its important. In your case it appears you have.
Making engines last, producing performance without the aid of a Turbocharger and managing the losses involved is a lot harder to do. You should feel thankful you have a turbo to make power.
BTW, have you ever taken the time to look at the construction of the factory bearing. How its made and what in consist of? All very necessary elements of building high performance engines. Unfortunately it is often taken for granted. Ever wondered why the materials used in the factory bearings appear to be inferior to many other bearings?
No its not about knife edging the counterweights, nor custom made bearings. Its about understanding what is going on at the bearing regardless of what bearing is used and how to help. Simple basic mods to the crankshaft that will help.
Some of the things i had done in my motor are Flycut Oil galleys, Shuffle Pinned the case, and "Boat Tailed the case webs". didn't do any bearing coatings this time.
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Lots of good info here. I'd listen to m42racer. He knows what he's talking about. What m42races states sounds almost verbatim what my engine builder (who's built countless race engines over the last 20 years) has told me. Building engines that have to last hours, not minutes, at full power is a different ballgame. I even got into a conversation regarding head studs with him a while back and it sounded very similar to what m42 has posted in the past here (post#16):
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...d-studs-2.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...d-studs-2.html
Last edited by pwdrhound; Mar 28, 2016 at 03:53 PM.
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Lots of good info here. I'd listen to m42racer. He knows what he's talking about. What m42races states sounds almost verbatim what my engine builder (who's built countless race engines over the last 20 years) has told me. Building engines that have to last hours, not minutes, at full power is a different ballgame. I even got into a conversation regarding head studs with him a while back and it sounded very similar to what m42 has posted in the past here (post#16):
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...d-studs-2.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...d-studs-2.html
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john he may know what he is talking about but this thread is no different than your posted thread. he talks in circles and provides no real info. that thread in 09 he asked if anyone had positive proof that the head studs had lifted. that answer in 2016 is yes. sean lifted the heads 3 times. the race wear 10mm studs lifted and stretched at 28 psi. with the 12mm studs in place they havent moved a micro at over 35 psi. what most that have posted here cant seem to comprehend is this is a major budget build. no huge hp no new from scratch parts unless absolutely needed. he just wants his motor together run the k24/18 with a conservative tune and get his car back.
As far as the OPs build, most guys here are not looking to build engines that will last a 24 hr endurance race. Most here are looking for a high hp motor that will be used in short spurts at the dragstrip and as such sticking with the "typical" builds that are done here will likely suffice. Certainly a stock motor with K24/18s and the right tuning will last many years so there is nothing magical that needs to be done. Rebuild the darn thing with proper factory parts (and procedures, procedures) using Carillos/Pauters, spend some time dataloging making sure you have a good safe tune, and call it a day. No need to reinvent the wheel. If the op wanted to run the engine at max power for hours on end at the racetrack I'd likely say that a different approach should be used. Under that scenario, other parts of the car (gearbox, suspension, brakes, etc.) will manifest themselves as the weak link anyway long before the engine..
Last edited by pwdrhound; Mar 28, 2016 at 05:01 PM.
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Yes, he does talk in code without providing real answers. Sort of a riddle. I know.
As far as the OPs build, most guys here are not looking to build engines that will last a 24 hr endurance race. Most here are looking for a high hp motor that will be used in short spurts at the dragstrip and as such sticking with the "typical" builds that are done here will likely suffice. Certainly a stock motor with K24/18s and the right tuning will last many years so there is nothing magical that needs to be done. Rebuild the darn thing with proper factory parts (and procedures, procedures) using Carillos/Pauters, spend some time dataloging making sure you have a good safe tune, and call it a day. No need to reinvent the wheel. If the op wanted to run the engine at max power for hours on end at the racetrack I'd likely say that a different approach should be used. Under that scenario, other parts of the car (gearbox, suspension, brakes, etc.) will manifest themselves as the weak link anyway long before the engine..
As far as the OPs build, most guys here are not looking to build engines that will last a 24 hr endurance race. Most here are looking for a high hp motor that will be used in short spurts at the dragstrip and as such sticking with the "typical" builds that are done here will likely suffice. Certainly a stock motor with K24/18s and the right tuning will last many years so there is nothing magical that needs to be done. Rebuild the darn thing with proper factory parts (and procedures, procedures) using Carillos/Pauters, spend some time dataloging making sure you have a good safe tune, and call it a day. No need to reinvent the wheel. If the op wanted to run the engine at max power for hours on end at the racetrack I'd likely say that a different approach should be used. Under that scenario, other parts of the car (gearbox, suspension, brakes, etc.) will manifest themselves as the weak link anyway long before the engine..
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First opportunity to respond.
Building any engine should be done with care and consideration. Building an engine professionally appears to have different requirements and consequences than building one DIY. From reading many posts about failures in the DIY arena, most are sympathetic to the owner/builder. Have a failure after the engine is built professionally and the shop/person is crucified on these very pages.
So shops that build these engines are very much guarded when it comes to giving out "how to's". Its their way to make a living. I have tried to bring to the attention to anyone interested "where" to focus attention without giving up secrets.
Things like, the journal width on the Turbo Crankshaft compared to the GT3 crank, oiling issues and mods that can be done to stock cranks. If anyone with some logic looked at the Oiling to the crankshaft would see a blatant issue with oil delivery on both street and race Porsche engines. Its not hard to spot. Then once the oil is at the crank, how to manage it. As I said, this is engine building 101.
Instead, you get trashed if you don't come right out and tell the exact thing to do. Why should we when its being made clear the engine is being built by what appears to be another shop. I have made the offer that the owner of this engine could PM me but hasn't. I even offered a brand new GT3 Crank if he wanted it.
Crazy 32, you find fault that I don't post the "ways to", and always seem to counter anything I say or suggest, would you offer up suggestions to someone who just wants to argue. You say certain head studs are trash and stretch, but cannot offer up any real evidence that they do. All you can say is that the head lifted? You fitted larger head studs and the lifting stopped, so automatically the heads studs were to blame and the new studs were the fix. Never mind the added anchoring into the case the 12.00mm studs give or the extra mass in the larger studs, or maybe the heads were collapsing inwards around the 10.00mm stud. Maybe you chose the wrong stud and or the wrong stud material. I actually went back and researched the ARP stud sold as a replacement for the stock stud and no where does it mention that those studs were good for 1000 HP. At least I couldn't see anything. Typically the manufacturer was blamed and not the installer who probably didn't research the use. My friend who I help, one of many engines they build is a Pro Mod engine that produces well over 4000 HP and it uses ARP studs. Those studs are not found in the ARP catalog but are designed and made for that use. Just as a stud should be for 1000HP engines.
The internet offers anyone the right and ability to be an expert. If you wish to do the work DIY, and things go south on you, you have 2 choices I guess. Ask those that know or bury your head in the sand and hope the problem goes away on its own. I can tell you, the problem will never go away unless you address the problem and take care of it.
All I am prepared to do is to bring attention to areas that should be looked at and considered. This is to protect those that do this work as a living. If you look at the oiling to the crankshaft and don"t see a problem, you should not be building any engine DIY or any other way. If you do not know how to manage the oil once it gets to the crankshaft you should not be building engines either.
Building any engine should be done with care and consideration. Building an engine professionally appears to have different requirements and consequences than building one DIY. From reading many posts about failures in the DIY arena, most are sympathetic to the owner/builder. Have a failure after the engine is built professionally and the shop/person is crucified on these very pages.
So shops that build these engines are very much guarded when it comes to giving out "how to's". Its their way to make a living. I have tried to bring to the attention to anyone interested "where" to focus attention without giving up secrets.
Things like, the journal width on the Turbo Crankshaft compared to the GT3 crank, oiling issues and mods that can be done to stock cranks. If anyone with some logic looked at the Oiling to the crankshaft would see a blatant issue with oil delivery on both street and race Porsche engines. Its not hard to spot. Then once the oil is at the crank, how to manage it. As I said, this is engine building 101.
Instead, you get trashed if you don't come right out and tell the exact thing to do. Why should we when its being made clear the engine is being built by what appears to be another shop. I have made the offer that the owner of this engine could PM me but hasn't. I even offered a brand new GT3 Crank if he wanted it.
Crazy 32, you find fault that I don't post the "ways to", and always seem to counter anything I say or suggest, would you offer up suggestions to someone who just wants to argue. You say certain head studs are trash and stretch, but cannot offer up any real evidence that they do. All you can say is that the head lifted? You fitted larger head studs and the lifting stopped, so automatically the heads studs were to blame and the new studs were the fix. Never mind the added anchoring into the case the 12.00mm studs give or the extra mass in the larger studs, or maybe the heads were collapsing inwards around the 10.00mm stud. Maybe you chose the wrong stud and or the wrong stud material. I actually went back and researched the ARP stud sold as a replacement for the stock stud and no where does it mention that those studs were good for 1000 HP. At least I couldn't see anything. Typically the manufacturer was blamed and not the installer who probably didn't research the use. My friend who I help, one of many engines they build is a Pro Mod engine that produces well over 4000 HP and it uses ARP studs. Those studs are not found in the ARP catalog but are designed and made for that use. Just as a stud should be for 1000HP engines.
The internet offers anyone the right and ability to be an expert. If you wish to do the work DIY, and things go south on you, you have 2 choices I guess. Ask those that know or bury your head in the sand and hope the problem goes away on its own. I can tell you, the problem will never go away unless you address the problem and take care of it.
All I am prepared to do is to bring attention to areas that should be looked at and considered. This is to protect those that do this work as a living. If you look at the oiling to the crankshaft and don"t see a problem, you should not be building any engine DIY or any other way. If you do not know how to manage the oil once it gets to the crankshaft you should not be building engines either.
Honestly, you might be in a very good position to help the OP. He's trying to get a pretty badly damaged engine back together and could use parts on a budget. If you scroll back you can see the carnage that's caused so much controversy and find out just what he needs in the way of parts. He's got engine cases sourced, rods, a crank, and his heads seemed to have mostly survived. But he likely could use any help possible at finding stuff that won't bankrupt him including an oil pump as his ingested metal. Since you do builds perhaps you've got some things laying around that mug be useful?
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What's frustrating is someone is trying to put an engine back together on a budget but we keep getting crumbs of info as to what it maybe could be but I'm not going to tell you is wrong with xyz that (haha) you better figure out or it might blow again hint hint. If you have information to share, spill it, if you're going to post endless hints like a giggling schoolgirl looking down on everyone spare us. I swear to God this crap in the Porsche world makes me want an LSx motor so badly! Everything is treated like a flippin' state secret and as an owner it sux! Is the BMW world this bad? Mercedes? Sheesh.
Yes, the smaller studs stretched, yes ARP off the shelf is barely better than stock, yes we know this, and yes it was tested. We also know what off the shelf ARP stud can be made to work at a fraction of the cost of overseas uber studs and is made of proper material. Oddly when ARP was asked to make a stud that was stronger for this app their price was higher than the good overseas studs and nowhere near the price of the stud found IN their catalog that works. It's still being tested but the material is right and so is the size. (shrug) oh, they're already used in another application with FAR higher cylinder pressure than we run...
Now, can we please get back to helping this gentleman get his motor back together so he can enjoy it? He's not building an endurance racer, he's going to mostly street drive it, and he'd like to not drain his 401k and take a second mortgage out to get there! He needs parts he can use, he needs advice, he needs information, and he doesn't need beating around the bush. He's in a **** situation and everyone dancing around pulling him to and fro isn't helping him move forward. Help and support is what's needed, parts if they're available would be great! This situation could be ANY of us the next time we drive our car so can we pull together for him?! Can we have some compassion?
If someone wants to give advice on advanced engine building by all means start a different thread for it and hope that people will actually share experience and information without endless bull****. Meanwhile this thread can help this owner get back into his pride and joy, pretty please? With some sugar on top maybe!
Yes, the smaller studs stretched, yes ARP off the shelf is barely better than stock, yes we know this, and yes it was tested. We also know what off the shelf ARP stud can be made to work at a fraction of the cost of overseas uber studs and is made of proper material. Oddly when ARP was asked to make a stud that was stronger for this app their price was higher than the good overseas studs and nowhere near the price of the stud found IN their catalog that works. It's still being tested but the material is right and so is the size. (shrug) oh, they're already used in another application with FAR higher cylinder pressure than we run...
Now, can we please get back to helping this gentleman get his motor back together so he can enjoy it? He's not building an endurance racer, he's going to mostly street drive it, and he'd like to not drain his 401k and take a second mortgage out to get there! He needs parts he can use, he needs advice, he needs information, and he doesn't need beating around the bush. He's in a **** situation and everyone dancing around pulling him to and fro isn't helping him move forward. Help and support is what's needed, parts if they're available would be great! This situation could be ANY of us the next time we drive our car so can we pull together for him?! Can we have some compassion?
If someone wants to give advice on advanced engine building by all means start a different thread for it and hope that people will actually share experience and information without endless bull****. Meanwhile this thread can help this owner get back into his pride and joy, pretty please? With some sugar on top maybe!
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OK sounds good. I think they got a pretty good handle on it now with Sean but will get with him and just see. Good points being made all around but when it comes down to it, the $ bill makes the decision and I resect that very much. We have got it down now pretty good and can make a respectable engine that can last at a respectable price!
Measured against what???? Were they measured before they were installed?? I'm sure the answer to that question will be yes. Go figure.
Torqued to what spec? Is there a spec provided by ARP or any other stud supplier for 1000 HP engine? I haven't seen one. Maybe you could send me one.
Again, grasping something is not difficult if you are prepared to use logic. There is no engineering logic to anything you ever state. There are no facts either. Just saying the studs stretched is meaningless. Out of the box they are different lengths so who's to know if they stretched? Racewear and ARP studs are not designed for 700 HP engines. If you researched the material used in their off the shelf fasteners, you would know they are not up to the work required. I do not know about Racewear, but I do know ARP and A1 (when they were around) make studs out of different material for different uses.
As for not wanting to ask me about building an engine, no one ever said you had too. You seem to have a lot of anger built up. Shame, as building engines is something that requires a level head and complete calm.
Torqued to what spec? Is there a spec provided by ARP or any other stud supplier for 1000 HP engine? I haven't seen one. Maybe you could send me one.
Again, grasping something is not difficult if you are prepared to use logic. There is no engineering logic to anything you ever state. There are no facts either. Just saying the studs stretched is meaningless. Out of the box they are different lengths so who's to know if they stretched? Racewear and ARP studs are not designed for 700 HP engines. If you researched the material used in their off the shelf fasteners, you would know they are not up to the work required. I do not know about Racewear, but I do know ARP and A1 (when they were around) make studs out of different material for different uses.
As for not wanting to ask me about building an engine, no one ever said you had too. You seem to have a lot of anger built up. Shame, as building engines is something that requires a level head and complete calm.
Just a little thought on that...
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No, ARP isn't "junk" but their offering for this platform off the shelf has proven to not be much better than stock. They're most certainly capable of making better and their catalog is huge. One of the users here sat down and looked through it knowing the general dimensions needed. What was found was a diesel stud, pretty sure it was for modified diesel too. Sean at SRM scratched his head and bought some, they're getting tested now in a motor I believe. Pretty sure he had an engineer test them too and that the off the shelf ARP studs were done too. Barring that the EVOMS 12mm studs have proven themselves but are costly, thus the desire to find something cheaper from the ARP catalog. If it works, we all benefit!
There's most certainly a science to fasteners. It's possible to have all sorts of issues but once a recipe is found that suits a purpose everyone benefits and the next weak link can be sought - for those that want to go further. For the guy who just had their engine gain a new window and doesn't desire 1500hp a set of good working studs in a new block with the knowledge it'll hold anything he's likely to throw at it is "good enough" which seems to be a term not used often enough sometimes.
There's most certainly a science to fasteners. It's possible to have all sorts of issues but once a recipe is found that suits a purpose everyone benefits and the next weak link can be sought - for those that want to go further. For the guy who just had their engine gain a new window and doesn't desire 1500hp a set of good working studs in a new block with the knowledge it'll hold anything he's likely to throw at it is "good enough" which seems to be a term not used often enough sometimes.
I should be fine from here. I'm waiting on the crank and rods to ship. I have not heard back from Sean about 32krazy's FVD pistons and liners. If that doesn't work out I will probably find some other pistons somewhere and get new liners. I have a few options for an oil pump, but waiting on that as it seems to be pretty readily available. Everything else will be built from new parts along with my old heads. I will start a new thread once I start building it to make sure I'm not doing anything dumb.