Protomotive k24/18g 600hp dynoed 595rwhp
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Originally Posted by Mike/A.W.E.
I think some folks misunderstood what it was I was balking at in that other thread.
This is a perfect time for me to explain.
The hybrids that I feel are all hype are the K16/24 turbos. I do not believe that these turbos are any better than a standard K24. They may spool quicker, but they don't have nearly the steam up top that a K24 has. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
This is a perfect time for me to explain.
The hybrids that I feel are all hype are the K16/24 turbos. I do not believe that these turbos are any better than a standard K24. They may spool quicker, but they don't have nearly the steam up top that a K24 has. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Originally Posted by Mike/A.W.E.
RCNJ's turbos are an entirely different hybrid/animal. I FULLY expected them to outperform a K24.
Not all hybrids are the devil...
Not all hybrids are the devil...
Originally Posted by Mike/A.W.E.
What surprised/concerned me the most was the 595 figure. In our opinion the boost was entirely too high. Another intriguing thing was that this kit comes standard with an MBC. What happened to wastegate regulation via the DME?
Allowing that much adjust ability can land a tuner in hot water. That run in our opinion was unsafe. The MBC overrides the DME and prevents it from doing it's job if something goes wrong. If a wastegate line were to tear, you would not know it until it was too late. No wastegate regulation means that the turbo will spin until it can't spin no more! BOOM.
Boost should be controlled by the DME. Bottom line.
In conclusion, I was not really surprised by the numbers, I was more surprised at the method for which they were achieved.
Allowing that much adjust ability can land a tuner in hot water. That run in our opinion was unsafe. The MBC overrides the DME and prevents it from doing it's job if something goes wrong. If a wastegate line were to tear, you would not know it until it was too late. No wastegate regulation means that the turbo will spin until it can't spin no more! BOOM.
Boost should be controlled by the DME. Bottom line.
In conclusion, I was not really surprised by the numbers, I was more surprised at the method for which they were achieved.
IMHO the K24 hybrid is the best bang for the buck on these cars.
Last edited by K24madness; Mar 31, 2007 at 08:14 AM.
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My car under construction at Protomotive:
In answer to the question about my Protomotive set-up:
K-24/18G's
Custom Y pipe,
LARGE throttle body
P.E. engineering MAF good to 1000 HP
custom intakes and piping
custom intercoolers
custom fuel system with upgraded injectors
headers
oh and Todd's programming and tuning at his shop.
To clarify this is identical set-up Divexxtreme had EXCEPT I am
adding larger throttle body also (which he did not with his set-up).
I am also fixing my tranny, adding new clutch in, ETC.
This will give the standard GT700's "something to think about"
(you knew I had to throw that last line in...)
Marty
K-24/18G's
Custom Y pipe,
LARGE throttle body
P.E. engineering MAF good to 1000 HP
custom intakes and piping
custom intercoolers
custom fuel system with upgraded injectors
headers
oh and Todd's programming and tuning at his shop.
To clarify this is identical set-up Divexxtreme had EXCEPT I am
adding larger throttle body also (which he did not with his set-up).
I am also fixing my tranny, adding new clutch in, ETC.
This will give the standard GT700's "something to think about"
(you knew I had to throw that last line in...)
Marty
Originally Posted by RCNJ
Mike,
I think you misunderstood what happened that day. I never run my car @ 1.43 bar. My package was tuned to run 1.2 @ 93 octane and 1.3 @ 100 octane. But, this was setup during the winter in colder climate and as you know that day it was 80 degrees. So , on my way to your shop I realized that the car was only putting out 1.1 on low and 1.2 on high. So then I took the liberty of cranking up both settings to achieve my normal boost levels and as you saw I over did it. I would say the realistic hp for my setup was the first run where I made 556hp @1.3 and the afr's were perfect.
I think you misunderstood what happened that day. I never run my car @ 1.43 bar. My package was tuned to run 1.2 @ 93 octane and 1.3 @ 100 octane. But, this was setup during the winter in colder climate and as you know that day it was 80 degrees. So , on my way to your shop I realized that the car was only putting out 1.1 on low and 1.2 on high. So then I took the liberty of cranking up both settings to achieve my normal boost levels and as you saw I over did it. I would say the realistic hp for my setup was the first run where I made 556hp @1.3 and the afr's were perfect.
I think that we both can agree that what happenend was a bit scary. With just another small turn of the MBC, and we could have had a meltdown on our hands...
Originally Posted by K24madness
Mike you imply that by removing the DME controlled boost the car is unsafe. This is not true. The DME safegaurds the motor other ways to. Throttle cuts is the big one. It is throttle cut that really saves the motor when all hell breaks loose. FWIW the EBC controls boost soooo much better than the DME. Looking at boost curves from both nothing else can be concluded.
Plus, have you watched the TB close on a scan tool? The max we have ever seen is about 40%!
If you have a turbo over boosting in a big way, much of that boost will still make it in even with partial closure.
I respectfully am going to have to disagree.
The proper way to tune is to do it in the same fashion as Bosch would. Use the saftey features on the car. Don't disable or bypass them.
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Originally Posted by Mike/A.W.E.
Motor aside, what about the turbo? The TB closing is not going to save a turbo that is over boosting from a torn wastegate line.
Plus, have you watched the TB close on a scan tool? The max we have ever seen is about 40%!
If you have a turbo over boosting in a big way, much of that boost will still make it in even with partial closure.
I respectfully am going to have to disagree.
The proper way to tune is to do it in the same fashion as Bosch would. Use the saftey features on the car. Don't disable or bypass them.
Plus, have you watched the TB close on a scan tool? The max we have ever seen is about 40%!
If you have a turbo over boosting in a big way, much of that boost will still make it in even with partial closure.
I respectfully am going to have to disagree.
The proper way to tune is to do it in the same fashion as Bosch would. Use the saftey features on the car. Don't disable or bypass them.
Don't forget the solinoid attached to the BPV's. This is what opens when the car goes into to limp mode. It truely bleeds off boost. Between that and the throttle cut there is a safety circut to prevent disasters.
The frequency valve that controls boost is not a safety circut. The above mentioned items are.
I respect the way you disagree.
Tom
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Okay Girls obviously you are not going to convince each other that your way is the best way. Let's just say different strokes for different folks and be done with it. Mike you want DME controlled boost for your customers and that is wonderful. Obviously there are others here who want to have MBC on their cars and it works for them.
We are beating a dead horse to try to convince each other to change how they feel. Two different ways to achieve a desired result. 2+2=4, 1+1+1+1=4.
Just my $.02.
We are beating a dead horse to try to convince each other to change how they feel. Two different ways to achieve a desired result. 2+2=4, 1+1+1+1=4.
Just my $.02.
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Todd K can set the TB shutdown anywhere he desires. I am having mine (Protomotive ECU) set for 1.45 bar in the event of a loose hose, programming error or momentary loss of good judgement.
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There is not much to disagree about in reality. Driving a fixed boost engine is not unsafe, it is only less safe, and the safety net is very dependent upon the quality of the tune and boost you are running.
The DME will pull timing and later, boost, depending on the conditions. When you remove this option to the DME, you are risking that your timing being pulled might not be enough to avoid detonation. It is not only about TB shutdown, since even a 1.2 Bar boost can damage your engine with the wrong fuel or state of tune.
This is sth. not even the most hardcore fixed boost tuner will disagree with. Given the choice, they would all do it, only you will need the skills to do it, and better still, an engine dyno with temperature control capability that will set you back several hundreds of thousands of dollars.
For quartermile runs and fast acceleration stints, you will be ok with an EBC if you are a prudent man. I like my fixed boost setup and probably would not trade it, but I never run beyond 1.0 Bars on a track since I know the risks involved a a result, once heat sets in lap after lap. You watercooled guys have more safety than aircooled, but I think we have enough examples of engines getting damaged in less than a year.
The DME will pull timing and later, boost, depending on the conditions. When you remove this option to the DME, you are risking that your timing being pulled might not be enough to avoid detonation. It is not only about TB shutdown, since even a 1.2 Bar boost can damage your engine with the wrong fuel or state of tune.
This is sth. not even the most hardcore fixed boost tuner will disagree with. Given the choice, they would all do it, only you will need the skills to do it, and better still, an engine dyno with temperature control capability that will set you back several hundreds of thousands of dollars.
For quartermile runs and fast acceleration stints, you will be ok with an EBC if you are a prudent man. I like my fixed boost setup and probably would not trade it, but I never run beyond 1.0 Bars on a track since I know the risks involved a a result, once heat sets in lap after lap. You watercooled guys have more safety than aircooled, but I think we have enough examples of engines getting damaged in less than a year.
Last edited by Jean; Mar 31, 2007 at 02:24 PM.
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Originally Posted by Jean
The DME will pull timing and later, boost, depending on the conditions. When you remove this option to the DME, you are risking that your timing being pulled might not be enough to avoid detonation. It is not only about TB shutdown, since even a 1.2 Bar boost can damage your engine with the wrong fuel or state of tune.
.
.
Running the EBC does not remove the DME's abilty to pull boost. It can still pull boost (ie limp mode) through the use of the solinoid attached to the BPV's (on the 996 NOT 993)
Tom
Last edited by K24madness; Mar 31, 2007 at 03:27 PM.
Originally Posted by K24madness
Jean,
Running the EBC does not remove the DME's abilty to pull boost. It can still pull boost (ie limp mode) through the use of the solinoid attached to the BPV's (on the 996 NOT 993)
Tom
Running the EBC does not remove the DME's abilty to pull boost. It can still pull boost (ie limp mode) through the use of the solinoid attached to the BPV's (on the 996 NOT 993)
Tom
Can you explain how this works?
If there is positive manifold pressure, the BPV's are being forced shut. How are they opened via the solenoid?
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Originally Posted by K24madness
Jean,
Running the EBC does not remove the DME's abilty to pull boost. It can still pull boost (ie limp mode) through the use of the solinoid attached to the BPV's (on the 996 NOT 993)
Tom
Running the EBC does not remove the DME's abilty to pull boost. It can still pull boost (ie limp mode) through the use of the solinoid attached to the BPV's (on the 996 NOT 993)
Tom
The point I am trying to make is that the DME does not "manage" the boost anymore in fixed mode, whether with EBC or simply the wastegate springs. A Motronic DME will pull boost, then bring it back, then pull, etc.. it will always run the highest boost level possible within the safety parameters set by the programming/knock sensing etc. Same process that the DME does with timing.
Now this "might" mean slower quartermile times for the variable boost car than a forced 30PSI run, I don't know, but it does provide for a safety margin that you don't get with fixed control.. All this is simply for the sakes of clarity, not saying which is better or worse.
Jean
Last edited by Jean; Apr 3, 2007 at 11:54 PM.
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