This is a long shot. I have been looking for an invasive EMS SW for a while now. I would like to get into the VAG ECU for the boosted W12 in Bentley. I know what to do with the data once I get in, it's getting in that is elusive right now. I know others have done it as tuners are using an ECU exchange for the W12.

Has anyone on the board used this SW for tuning anything and can you comment on it or recommend it? I've posted in the tune forum too, but it is a pretty stagnant forum.

Here is a short video on WINOLs:

 

I am bumping this thread just one time, hope no one minds. Thought more folks might be checking in over the weekend.

A few have viewed the thread, but looks like no one has any experience w/sw. I'm tempted to just purchase it outright but a little pricey @ $1500.00 just to experiment.

From the research I've done, there is about 60 hp that Bentley left on the table. This HP is accessible through some simple modifications of EMS tune data and with no other physical mods. I know right where those "horses" are stored if I can get there in the program files.

BTW, it is common practice for all car mfgrs to dial back peak engine output on performance cars (actually all cars) as life cycle is significantly increased, and since the factory has to warranty the powertrain for lots of time/miles.......

 

Totally agreed on mfr, tuning for reliability.

No experience with this particular software, but am familiar with the ecu mapping process having dabbled with it several years ago. (remapping of curves for fuel/air ratios, boost, timing, overboost protection, etc.)

just fyi... if it's just the horsepower, you could get an ECU flash for a few hundred less than $1500 and much less effort. +62HP, 85 ft/lbs Torque. They also offer an ECO mapping for better gas mileage. You'd still be just under $1500 with everything you need.

https://www.vrtuned.com/tuned-ecu-fl...150774147.html

From my experience, this type of tuning using that type of software takes a lot of trial and error and dyno testing to get the most HP and also maintain drive-ability, reliability. Might take several months to get it right and several visits to the dyno. Getting the car to start, idle correctly and perform consistently across the rev range in all gears is pretty involved process, in my experience. And that's starting with starting point maps from other folks who had similar mods. Finally, some systems have encrypted systems these days that prevent anything but (what it thinks are) factory computers to change values, requiring that piece to be figured out also, or licensed the technology to be able to do that.

Not to mention the wear on the car from the dyno runs to 'full blast'

If you don't have free access to a dyno, your total cost could get pretty pricy. If it's just the HP you're after I'd suggest the above ECU flash, which I believe a few forum members have had positive experiences with.

If however, you have the time, patience and ability to tune/test, it looks to be pretty nifty.

 

Hi Sam

Wow, nice to hear from someone on the board who has some insight about what goes on "behind the curtain". The last line of your reply defines what I want to achieve. I don't really care at all about the 62HP, I only desire to know how to get there (along with someone to talk to on these boards....haha).

I've 7 years' experience tuning American V8s, building them too. I have HPTuners knowledge, EFI Live too and have experimented with a number of "canned" hand tuners like Diablosport. My very first build and where I learned to street tune with a wideband was an NA LS3 that I installed a centrifugal SC. I spent hundreds of hours researching/studying EMSs and tune systems before I ever picked up a wrench. I frankly had no interest in the 200 extra HP, I only had a desire to unlock the personal mystery of what was behind the curtain. I easily spent $15,000 on that first build/tune eventually doubling the HP which I had no interest in using. In fact, sold the car once the learning was over.

One comment on one of your comments - Dyno tuning vs. Street tuning - These are two sides of the same coin. I came to rely totally on street tuning. Dynos (w/o a wideband) can find peak HP/TQ. You have to know how to read HP/TQ to safely fuel an engine. Safe is not peak fueling. The difference in absolute peak performance AFR and safe only loses a couple HP in a 500hp engine, but the difference in engine longevity is hundreds of additional operating hours between builds. On a street tune with a good WB I know that number, the dyno tuner is only guessing, but I do not know that actual HP/TQ of my build only street tuning. A good dyno tuner will finish with a datalogger and street adjustments to the tune, where the tune is actually used. Big difference running the entire system 100 MPH "standing still" vs. actually running 100 mph. Sadly MOST tuners only do dyno runs and call it a day.

Here, my next horizon is to understand and access the dual ECU platforms. I think it would add a new dimension of discussion to the Bentley forum which is a pretty slow and simple forum. Right now the discussion is limited to pretty simple "nuts/bolts" issues like dead batteries, failed air shocks, how to change steering wheels and an occasional CEL. Part of my post was just to see if there was any appetite for it other than my own. If I did the purchase I doubt I'd ever actually permanently add the extra 62HP, but it would be fun to get my hands on it. BTW, probably never get a WB in anywhere anytime soon on a W12....LOL.

Hope this makes sense, and good to exchange talk with you!

 

Ah, understood! What you're doing sounds really neat, and like a scaled down formula 1 team with metrics and telemetry.

Funny you mention the fuel mapping. A lot of the early chip tuners were notorious for running rich to mask problems or use the extra fuel to cool down the cyl heads. One of the first set I had used to shoot 2 foot blue flames out of the exhaust on the 1/2 upshift, lol. ('Superchips' I'm talkin' about you!) . We used to have the engineering guys at the local Uni. read, and burn blank EEPROMs for us so we could have multiple sets and these copies were very susceptible to being ruined with the slightest bit of of static electricity. The holy grail chipset for a car using the factory ECU were the factory Porsche cup car series maps.

Agree on the 'butt dyno' as we called it vs. rollers, but one challenge was top end in all the gears, and only being able to drive so fast on the streets and few tracks nearby that would allow or accomodate those speeds for non professinals, not to mention the cost.

I suspect the forums for cars that are usually highly modified like 90s supras, nissan gtrs, etc, are much more lively on the EMS topics. Also, because they are nimble (not to mention half the weight!) and trackable, the track crowd joins in.

Unfortunately, my experience was fairly limited and in the early days of the DIY EMS setups (early 90s, so pre-dating things like Megasquirt, OBD II and well before the 'fast and furous' tuning culture in the US) on a 944 turbo, for remapping when swapping out things like turbo, injectors, fuel regulators, wastegate, mass air sensor, o2 sensors, boost valves, and as such, so much simpler electronically and physically!

The factory ECUs (Bosch DME & KLR) were sooo much simpler back then, being the stock ECU controlled limited things and less to tune and the Bosch units could probably store 8K of data or something. Although, at the time it came out in the 80s, the 'learning' adaptive feature of the ECU was leading edge for consumer cars. Guys started replacing the heads with electronically controlled valve-trains and that looked really interesting, but was in it's infancy 20 yrs ago. Also, the transmission, being fully 'analog' was much simpler too, not being a factor to control.

I suspect as more folks of limited means start purchasing these highly depreciated older cars, the DIYers will start to come out in order to get the most out of these cars for the least cost and perhaps lots of sweat equity.

Perhaps the 'shadetree mechanic' term needs to be updated to 'wifi' mechanics with the advent of internet forums, computer basted tuning/optimization, etc.

Best of luck with you endeavors!

 

Hi Sam:

Interesting reply. Looks like you've done some....

"Butt Dyno" had (has) a much different meaning to me and the tune crowd. Street tuning is not something done by ear, at all. When I do pulls there is a laptop taking up residence on my passenger's seat. Pulls are pretty simple (not dangerous) and I do them on a remote blacktop where there is never any traffic. You don't need anything more than a rolling start (20/25mph) and wind up to redline if tuning in PE fuel and timing. In a manual like the C6 FIed Corvette,(about 625hp) that would be a second gear rolling start to redline, a shift and shutdown about 100 to 105 mph.

Way before that I would have already set mid throttle fuel/timing midrange and idle before that, which is sometimes the most difficult to get when upgrading fuel injectors. On the first SC engine I built I went from 43lb factory injectors to 80 lb then to 100lb. Those steps in setting injector data are critical. There is a lot to injector data. All of this work is just driving at midrange RPMs until fuel trims stabilize. So, nothing wild on the streets.

Funny when you talk about overfueling. Every high compression of FIed EMS I've seen, the factory builds in an instant overfueling right at the point of deceleration/ fuel cutoff. I can show this over and over again on data logs I've pulled. You must take that into account when setting PE fueling. It's always there in the DFCO algorithm and I've seen tuners fooled by it which could be critical to correct fuel on a boosted engine.

And, some of today's tuners are really a joke. I've seen some of their work on tunes for which they've charged $6/7/800 and more. They think by shutting off CEL triggers they're tuning. We call them "Tooners" as in cartooners. Good example of this is tuning in headers. Instead of doing any real tuning, I've seen they simply turn off the code to the rear O2 sensors so the ECU no longer generates a CEL and they call it a tune...for $600.....ouch!

If I get a chance, I'll look up some of my data logs. Show you some of the data I collect on a single street pull. I can post screen captures and not the dynamic log BC the SW is proprietary.

Good discussion!

 

Hahahahah! This gave me a chuckle, and has certainly evolved. I am familiar with RTA/ WB O2 etc., now, but wasn't even a "thing" I knew about at the time. As I mentioned it's been a while. Below is what a laptop looked like back then and no one I knew had one and without WB or OBD II, one would have to rig up a way to get the readings from the source components. One check was fuel/air ratios calculated from voltage readings of the o2 sensors in 100 or 500 RPM increments plotted into a spreadsheet. Also, there were no mass air sensor at first, so this was based on how much the intake flapper door opened. By taking the resistance, one could know to some degree the air volume coming in based on RPM and fuel ratios. Really crude by comparison of what can be easily be gleaned with today's software in real time. This has come a long way.

 

Ha...Beautiful! Thanks for posting that! I was Senior Manufacturing Engineer on Digital Equipment's first (and only) attempt at a PC. Called the DEC Rainbow (how embarrassing)!


Here are a couple more relics. I went through Engineering School with that monster TI on the left. And, of course, my first calculator a Commadore. Funny that a lot of engineering students in my day were still using slide rules.....good for them! Others of us were bleeding edge with TI-55s.


I use a Bosch 4.9 (packaged in any mfgr's controller) as the only retail WB I'd use. I know what you were up against trying to use O2 sensor voltage to try to arrive at some rudimentary form of AFR, but man! That is really "hammer and chisel"...LOL...O2 (narrowbands) are painfully slow switchers and it's like trying to hit a pinata with a blindfold on...haha...

Lots of EMSs use calculated data as outputs which should not even exist for all practicality as they are ridiculously inaccurate.

I'm very much enjoying these conversations! Good to connect with someone out there that's been around!

 

That is amazing, haven't seen those for a very long time ... nice one Sir ...

 

Thank you Mr. Rico! I cannot believe I keep some of this junk around.

On a different topic - I see that the dollar is $1.20 to the British pound....that is a great conversion! Last time we were there it was $1.80. Dollar is $1.10 to the Euro....WOW, got to get the wife planning some vacation here. Paris is probably next on our list, but recently she mentioned Amsterdam. I was there on business about 10 years ago, I imagine it's changed....a little....haha.....

 

As we all do my friend, to us its not junk but to the young ones well ? ... thats a good rate yes plan a few trips or one long one, Im sure Paris will be nice, woman love Paris, shopping Lol ... oh I haven't been to Amsterdam for many years I cant even remember the last time I was there ... If you do end up in Paris Im just across the river or the tunnel ... bon voyage ...

 

Great stuff Bwings and likewise it's been very nice chatting.

That commodore looks like an LED display, very nice. And you've still got the original cases!

Also, $1.20/pound.. hmmmmm..... what do I need (want!) from Flying Spares? Maybe I can arbitrage some Scotch : )

Great stuff guys!