The New M3 is in TROUBLE
#31
09-04-2007, 02:32 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLybzItrd8s
Check this out in regards to the S5. The 335 is one impressive car..
Feels like we'll have to wait for the RS5 before we can include the 5:s in the comparison. But based on the difference between the current S4 and RS4, I've got pretty high hopes for the RS5
Check this out in regards to the S5. The 335 is one impressive car..
Feels like we'll have to wait for the RS5 before we can include the 5:s in the comparison. But based on the difference between the current S4 and RS4, I've got pretty high hopes for the RS5
#32
09-04-2007, 07:39 AM
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Even with 450 hp the RS4 will probably have lots of problems against both Mercedes and BMW...I'm quite sure that in terms of driving pleasure the RS4 won't do any better...
#33
09-04-2007, 09:24 AM
I just have trouble with that kind of reasoning. You don't pick competitors based on your own impression of how Car producers develop their model range. You pick competitors based on how similar they are to one and other.
The S4 to the M3? Well, in that case you'll be comparing more performance with a lower cost. You'll get different results based on which criteria you've set up in the first place. The M3 CSL to the RS4? Same thing there. One will come at a lower price with more comfort, the other will be in another league performance-wise. Not a big surprise as one is a dedicated track car, the other a sedan or estate with room for a family. It's not a very constructive comparison.
The top of-the-line-Mini is not a competitor to the top-of-the-line Aston just because they're both at the top of their model line-up. They're different cars, for different purposes.
The S4 to the M3? Well, in that case you'll be comparing more performance with a lower cost. You'll get different results based on which criteria you've set up in the first place. The M3 CSL to the RS4? Same thing there. One will come at a lower price with more comfort, the other will be in another league performance-wise. Not a big surprise as one is a dedicated track car, the other a sedan or estate with room for a family. It's not a very constructive comparison.
The top of-the-line-Mini is not a competitor to the top-of-the-line Aston just because they're both at the top of their model line-up. They're different cars, for different purposes.
The Mini and Aston aren't even competitors, everyone knows that Audi and BMW compete almost in all classes.
The S and RS from Audi I guess are hard to place in comparisons just like Mercedes (AMG) because both brands are oversaturated with those distinctions, especially mercedes, so I guess it comes down to price.
The RS4 was priced well above the E46 M3, and now with the price of the M3 going up it will be closer to the pricing of an RS4 ---thus making them almost comparable.
I guess we will just have to see how they stack up against one another..
Different strokes for different folks, cars are like speakers, each opinion is subjective.
#34
09-04-2007, 09:38 AM
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Having driven none of the cars on debate here, I'll add my $ 0.02.
From what I can gather the new M3 is certainly a splendid car, delicious engine, beautifully balanced and technologically advanced. However so is the RS4, in the M3 vs quick Audi comparisons of old, the M3 would come out on top easily. Just a better car in most if not all regards. However no one can deny that the new RS4 is a tremendous achievement and a huge leap over its predecessors. It has a fantastic, high revving V8, probably the best AWD system on the market today, a drive/handling wich involves the driver a lot more than it used to. Although it's more 'sterile' than the E46 M3. And with all that extra gear, it still weighs almos exactly as much as the new E92 M3. Despite the new M3's trick carbon roof and the weight savings wich according to BMW are numerous. The consensus among the people who have actually driven the new M3 so far is that it's not as focused or sharp as the previous one. The car is apparently softer in setup; moving a little bit more to a GT as opposed to the genuine light weight sports car the E30 M3 once was. Not saying the car isn't a sports car any more before anyone misunderstands me.
So in summary; half a decade ago the Bimmer was clearly the better car when compared to its Audi rivals. Today when asked the same question, the answer is a lot less obvious and anyone who stubbornly keeps pointing his finger at the M3, no matter what, might be missing out on one amazing car.
With that said; I'm really eager to see wich rabbit AMG will pull out of their hats. The boys of Das Haus talk the talk, but whether they'll walk the walk is still to be seen.
From what I can gather the new M3 is certainly a splendid car, delicious engine, beautifully balanced and technologically advanced. However so is the RS4, in the M3 vs quick Audi comparisons of old, the M3 would come out on top easily. Just a better car in most if not all regards. However no one can deny that the new RS4 is a tremendous achievement and a huge leap over its predecessors. It has a fantastic, high revving V8, probably the best AWD system on the market today, a drive/handling wich involves the driver a lot more than it used to. Although it's more 'sterile' than the E46 M3. And with all that extra gear, it still weighs almos exactly as much as the new E92 M3. Despite the new M3's trick carbon roof and the weight savings wich according to BMW are numerous. The consensus among the people who have actually driven the new M3 so far is that it's not as focused or sharp as the previous one. The car is apparently softer in setup; moving a little bit more to a GT as opposed to the genuine light weight sports car the E30 M3 once was. Not saying the car isn't a sports car any more before anyone misunderstands me.
So in summary; half a decade ago the Bimmer was clearly the better car when compared to its Audi rivals. Today when asked the same question, the answer is a lot less obvious and anyone who stubbornly keeps pointing his finger at the M3, no matter what, might be missing out on one amazing car.
With that said; I'm really eager to see wich rabbit AMG will pull out of their hats. The boys of Das Haus talk the talk, but whether they'll walk the walk is still to be seen.
#35
09-05-2007, 12:34 AM
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u missed The best argument point. the RS4 is indeed the competitor of M3. RS4 is from Quattro while S4 is from Audi but with a S badge. M3 is from M GmbH & C63 is from AMG. regardless the price point the Quttaro = M GmbH = AMG.
#37
09-05-2007, 11:50 AM
Thanks for clearing that up, i wasnt sure of this fact......
So what does M stand for on the M3.
#38
09-05-2007, 12:48 PM
even if it's fact they're technically manufactured differently, audi certainly puts no emphasis on that. they aren't making it like there is something so special about the RS4 over the standard S4. . .like how BMW markets a standard 3 series versus an M3.
the B6 S4 was developed to compete with the E46 M3; there was no B6 RS4 in production, at least not here i believe. since BMW's and Audi's generations don't sync up 100%, audi releases the B7 model S4 while BMW is still manufacturing the E46 M3 models. it had to be kind of disappointing for audi fans that the "new" generation S4 is still an "equal" of the now OLD generation M3, so audi releases the RS4 to "annhilate" the current M3, and do battle with the next generation M3.
well this is a problem being that it's a LOT more expensive($69 grand i think is the newly updated price, or will soon be?) than the outgoing M3, thus it was never a competitor of it, AND will most likely be 7 or so grand more expensive than the new model M3. . .so it puts it at an odd price point to really directly compete with the E90/92 M3.
i think what some people are trying to say is. . .the RS4 is the top of the range A4, as is the M3 CSL is the top of the range M3, and well, there is absolutely no contest which is the better car there. . .but again the prices dont match up well enough for them to be DIRECT competitors in my opinion.
Last edited by frankieb96; 09-05-2007 at 12:53 PM.
#39
09-06-2007, 12:06 AM
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Rep Power: 680 then why does audi market the S4 and RS4 together? goto the dealer, they're in the same brochure. . .go online, they have a seperate section for the "S/RS Series"
even if it's fact they're technically manufactured differently, audi certainly puts no emphasis on that. they aren't making it like there is something so special about the RS4 over the standard S4. . .like how BMW markets a standard 3 series versus an M3.
the B6 S4 was developed to compete with the E46 M3; there was no B6 RS4 in production, at least not here i believe. since BMW's and Audi's generations don't sync up 100%, audi releases the B7 model S4 while BMW is still manufacturing the E46 M3 models. it had to be kind of disappointing for audi fans that the "new" generation S4 is still an "equal" of the now OLD generation M3, so audi releases the RS4 to "annhilate" the current M3, and do battle with the next generation M3.
well this is a problem being that it's a LOT more expensive($69 grand i think is the newly updated price, or will soon be?) than the outgoing M3, thus it was never a competitor of it, AND will most likely be 7 or so grand more expensive than the new model M3. . .so it puts it at an odd price point to really directly compete with the E90/92 M3.
i think what some people are trying to say is. . .the RS4 is the top of the range A4, as is the M3 CSL is the top of the range M3, and well, there is absolutely no contest which is the better car there. . .but again the prices dont match up well enough for them to be DIRECT competitors in my opinion.
even if it's fact they're technically manufactured differently, audi certainly puts no emphasis on that. they aren't making it like there is something so special about the RS4 over the standard S4. . .like how BMW markets a standard 3 series versus an M3.
the B6 S4 was developed to compete with the E46 M3; there was no B6 RS4 in production, at least not here i believe. since BMW's and Audi's generations don't sync up 100%, audi releases the B7 model S4 while BMW is still manufacturing the E46 M3 models. it had to be kind of disappointing for audi fans that the "new" generation S4 is still an "equal" of the now OLD generation M3, so audi releases the RS4 to "annhilate" the current M3, and do battle with the next generation M3.
well this is a problem being that it's a LOT more expensive($69 grand i think is the newly updated price, or will soon be?) than the outgoing M3, thus it was never a competitor of it, AND will most likely be 7 or so grand more expensive than the new model M3. . .so it puts it at an odd price point to really directly compete with the E90/92 M3.
i think what some people are trying to say is. . .the RS4 is the top of the range A4, as is the M3 CSL is the top of the range M3, and well, there is absolutely no contest which is the better car there. . .but again the prices dont match up well enough for them to be DIRECT competitors in my opinion.
#41
09-06-2007, 08:43 AM
they did the marketing research that's why. a closely eqqiped Audi's price can never be higher than BMW or Mercedes. people can compare them whatever they want but at the end of the day they're just different. btw, i was just saying the fact. RS line is from Quattro. if u open the door on the RS4 u can see the car is built by ''Quattro GmbH'' not Audi.
with the "quattro gmbh" thing, that's nice to know, but that doesn't retroactively change the fact that the B5, B6 & B7 S4s were specifically competitors to the respective M3 that would be out at the time, regardless of any manufacturer's badge. the RS4 is just in a really weird spot in the market in my opinion, and it's solely based on price. it's not really CLEARLY competing with anything right now, and that might not change when the E92 comes out either.
#44
09-06-2007, 11:41 PM
So yeh 335i and s4 and rs4 is a BIG PROBLEM for the M3 the only way the M3 makes it now because there is a cult like following with m cars, but as far as power wise ill stick to my puney lil pt and ill stick to my 335i over an m3 and u can see my buns the whole way 
all in all the powerplants provided in the mentioned automobiles have much more potential and already capable of far more then the M3. Dont get me wrong M3 is pretty good although it feels a little disconnected and it thinks for you so you can go through corners faster but potential wise ill stick to such cars as the 335i, one, s4, rs4 and they will still dominate oh and my wittle pt cruiser
Last edited by *STATUS*; 09-06-2007 at 11:43 PM.
