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997 Turbo / GT2 20062012 Turbo discussion on the 997 model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo.

Mezger vs Newer

 
  #16  
Old 08-30-2010, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by skandalis447 View Post
There is simply no comparison between mezger and 3,8lt engines...Neither from outside nor from inside view...As for durability...just forget it...when tuning begins internal parts of the new engine are way too weak for increased torque and hp...
However new car with flash and exhaust is extremely fast and has no problem in handling hp/lbft...above these levels internal modification is required...Keep in mind that raised compression ratio (due to dfi) is good for a stock engine giving more torque at low rpm byt is bad for bigger turbos where lower cr is needed...
Porsche again created an exceptional car with no contester in 500hp range...But for high hp tuning...major changes are needed...
With all due respect, I think that what you are saying here is pure speculation and not supported by any facts that I could locate anywhere.

If you know of a single case where a new DFI engine has blown for going beyond a simple flash and exhaust, as you stated, say, by installing modified VTGs, please provide us with the details of the incident.

I am amazed how we sometimes post with such an authoritative tone when what we really are stating is just an opinion.

I confess, I am sometimes guilty of that myself, but at least I try to admit when I am wrong and provide the correct information later.
The following is an example of just such a case:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ml#post2960551
 

Last edited by k_ddsl; 08-30-2010 at 05:53 AM.
  #17  
Old 08-30-2010, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by k_ddsl View Post
Hey Jim,

I asked the Training Manager at the dealership here in Kuwait about this specifically and here is what he said in general:
1- The two engines have the same basic engine block
2- The two engines' components are built from the same materials, alloys, etc...
3- The oiling system of the DFI engine is claimed to be more efficient than the 3.6L engine in that oil is micro-sprayed on top of the pistons which is claimed to greatly enhance lubrication.
4- The two engines will handle the same type of abuse, etc...
5- Compression ratio on the new engine is higher while boost on the new turbo is lower.

By and large, he said that the new engine should be at least as good as the old one in terms of reliability and longevity, etc...

Hope this helps,

Karim
1- The two engines have the same basic engine block???????? so does a VW bug

WHAT?????? NO NO NO GT1 dry sump 3.8 DFI wet sump. in 10 years the 07,08,09 will hold there value. 10 & 11 will not. JMO
 
  #18  
Old 08-30-2010, 07:12 AM
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Like I told Bob, I will challenge the information and post back.

Please don't shoot the messenger guys
 
  #19  
Old 08-30-2010, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by lardog View Post
1- The two engines have the same basic engine block???????? so does a VW bug

WHAT?????? NO NO NO GT1 dry sump 3.8 DFI wet sump. in 10 years the 07,08,09 will hold there value. 10 & 11 will not. JMO
Just like every Turbo that came before it the tuners will get big power out of the car. Do you think that they will just pack it in because the engine is different?

You don't have to wait ten years to see that the 997.1 is disproportionately less valuable than the 997.2 especially with the PDK. The resale value of the 09 Tip's is really going to suffer.

The basic fact is that you don't have to mod it at all. Simple mods yield a 10 sec car.
 
  #20  
Old 08-30-2010, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
'07's have the same engine....just sayin'....
Thanks for sticking up for us.
 
  #21  
Old 08-30-2010, 10:11 AM
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Exhibit A

Originally Posted by k_ddsl View Post
2- The two engines' components are built from the same materials, alloys, etc...

Mezger engines have Nikasil cylinders. Nikasil is created by electroplating nickel carbide onto aluminum. Originally patented by Mahle, the technology has been used in the 917 and Carrera RS 2.7 as well.

Nikasil creates a very durable, low friction, lightweight cylinder that can be used with stronger forged pistons. Nikasil has been or is currently used by all Formula 1 race teams.

A91 DFI cylinders use an aluminum/silicon alloy known as Lokasil. Lokasil is made of high silicon content aluminum which is cast as part of the engine block then is etched chemically leaving the silicon as the wearing surface.

Having a fully replaceable cylinder (Mezger engine) is a natural part of the design for the air-cooled engine since the cylinder had to be externally finned and exposed to air flow. When Porsche converted to water cooled technology, they removed the fins and bolted a water jacket around the cylinders. This retained the easily replaceable feature of separate cylinders and allowed easy use of a Nikasil cylinder and forged pistons. Having a replaceable cylinder facilitates engine rebuilding for racing.

The new A91 engine has a closed cylinder deck.

Porsche could also coat the cylinders of the A91 with Nikasil if they chose and not have a separate liner, but then the engine would be harder to rebuild.
 

Last edited by bbywu; 08-30-2010 at 10:32 AM.
  #22  
Old 08-30-2010, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bbywu View Post
Mezger engines have Nikasil cylinders. Nikasil is created by electroplating nickel carbide onto aluminum. Originally patented by Mahle, the technology has been used in the 917 and Carrera RS 2.7 as well.

Nikasil creates a very durable, low friction, lightweight cylinder that can be used with stronger forged pistons. Nikasil has been or is currently used by all Formula 1 race teams.
+1 - my 55s have nikasil cylinders as well and while it isn't perfect technology, it is pretty damned durable and I have grown to appreciate it more and more. That is, as long as you don't hurt/destroy your engine (nikasil is complicated and $$$$$$).

-m
 
  #23  
Old 08-30-2010, 02:27 PM
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Yes...make a search...
 
  #24  
Old 08-30-2010, 02:47 PM
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I have no reason to write something without evidence...I am 100% sure I ve read a thread here 5-6 months ago regarding a 997.2 tuning with flash and exhaust that the engine cracked at 555whp (if i recall right...)Perhaps mods can help me locate this thread...Thare were photos showing internal destroyed parts of the new 997.2 engine and you could clearly see that e.g. con rods were much more thinner than 997.1 so they just couldnt hold the raised torque...I will do an extended search to find it...
 
  #25  
Old 08-30-2010, 02:55 PM
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The mezger is a racing motor that was mass produced. The new 3.8 was meant to be mass produced from day one.

It is the PDK and an engine that is already tuned at more than 60% of capacity (unlike the Mezgers which are capable of handling nearly double the power that they have in stock form) that makes the new 997's so formidable.

Now hook up an 800 hp race gas tuned Mezger w/ a PDK that could handle the power and game over.
 
  #26  
Old 08-30-2010, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by k_ddsl View Post
With all due respect, I think that what you are saying here is pure speculation and not supported by any facts that I could locate anywhere.

If you know of a single case where a new DFI engine has blown for going beyond a simple flash and exhaust, as you stated, say, by installing modified VTGs, please provide us with the details of the incident.

I am amazed how we sometimes post with such an authoritative tone when what we really are stating is just an opinion.

I confess, I am sometimes guilty of that myself, but at least I try to admit when I am wrong and provide the correct information later.
The following is an example of just such a case:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ml#post2960551
++1 in all respects.
 
  #27  
Old 08-30-2010, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by skandalis447 View Post
I have no reason to write something without evidence...I am 100% sure I ve read a thread here 5-6 months ago regarding a 997.2 tuning with flash and exhaust that the engine cracked at 555whp (if i recall right...)Perhaps mods can help me locate this thread...Thare were photos showing internal destroyed parts of the new 997.2 engine and you could clearly see that e.g. con rods were much more thinner than 997.1 so they just couldnt hold the raised torque...I will do an extended search to find it...
If that story were remotely true it would be big news.

I searched and found zero to support it on this and a couple other forums.
 
  #28  
Old 08-30-2010, 03:38 PM
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Lokasil cylinders had serious cracking and shape problems in the 996 N\A non GT3 engines. Metal matrix composites can be stunning and offer many advantages, but IMO Porsche is not using them to build "better" components, it's using them to build "cheaper" ones.
Those Si particles in a Lokasil liner are great for reducing friction and the lokasil liners have tighter tolerances then the Nikasil ones (they are in part responsible for the low oil consumption of the DFI motors), but strenght-wise metal matrix composite can be very hard to manage (just look at the 996 liners failures..).

Now I'm sure Porsche has spent a lot of efforts trying to eliminate the weak spots of this technology, but I wouldn't trust it yet. Not until they put Lokasil cylinders on racing cars.


Wet sump lubrication is a thing that I cannot stand....and again, they did it because it is cheaper, I hate this. Now I'm sure they have improved it a lot and I'm sure it has no more oil starvation/surge issues but....

The 997.2 has amazing performances, and it's mindblowing fast with simple mods (ET times and trap speeds speak for themselves), but I wouldn't play with fire trying to replicate the power that 996/997 engines are capable of.

The Mezger engine started as a 600hp 3.2 liters engine (in the GT1).
 

Last edited by emadelta86; 08-30-2010 at 03:41 PM.
  #29  
Old 08-30-2010, 03:39 PM
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ok...when this thread was written,there were also supporting photos of this broken engine/con rod...I really dont know where to locate them...But I can recall watching them here...
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...tarted-10.html
 
  #30  
Old 08-30-2010, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TT Gasman View Post
Yes the GT1 engine costs about twice as much as the wet sump DFI, that should tell you something. The tech is dead wrong, the two engines share nothing other than both being a flat 6 design, they couldn't be more different.
+1, The only thing shared #valves and #of pistons, LOL Two completely different engines.
 

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