Who here thinks the Power kit is a ripoff?
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I'm not convinced. Very few of the Porsche's I see have any of that customization. Most 911s come with the less premium looking plastic dash - even the 911 S and 4S models. I've been looking for one with two-tone full leather and it's pretty hard to find unless you order or put up with some random body color. And the most adjustable seat available is an 18 way which looks great but I don't think it's that special - my BMW has 20 way. I used to have a Lexus which had 18 way.
BTW, build your car, it's the best way to do it. It's almost impossible to find a car on a lot that has what you want.
just my .02
Last edited by BlackSpeed; Jan 14, 2014 at 12:59 PM.
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I know what you're saying, but my point was Porsche offers a multitude of choices for just about everything--I personally ordered my car with the basic seats (I don't remember how many adj points). I have to pull the thing between my legs to move it front and back, haha--But that's exactly what I wanted. I'm the only one who will ever drive the car and once the seat is set, it's done for as long as I own it. So to me 18 way is a waste for ME. You might want 64 way and that's okay too. It's all about options, we're all different people, so why should our cars all be the same?
Sometimes with economies of scale, most people get more for their money.
Generally I support customization - I'm usually the guy who orders the custom paint and the full leather interior. But I think what we have here is a brand which is having a lot of economic rent because they have had very little quality competition. BMW and Mercedes got better because of competition from Lexus and Audi. It would be good to see someone apply similar pressure to Porsche's sports cars.
Last edited by stealth.pilot; Jan 14, 2014 at 01:02 PM.
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Fair enough, but if we learned that it would save everyone $1000 if we all had 14 way seats, then what would you prefer?
Sometimes with economies of scale, most people get more for their money.
Generally I support customization - I'm usually the guy who orders the custom paint and the full leather interior. But I think what we have here is a brand which is having a lot of economic rent because they have had very little quality competition. BMW and Mercedes got better because of competition from Lexus and Audi. It would be good to see someone apply similar pressure to Porsche's sports cars.
Sometimes with economies of scale, most people get more for their money.
Generally I support customization - I'm usually the guy who orders the custom paint and the full leather interior. But I think what we have here is a brand which is having a lot of economic rent because they have had very little quality competition. BMW and Mercedes got better because of competition from Lexus and Audi. It would be good to see someone apply similar pressure to Porsche's sports cars.
If I want cheaper and better value, I can go buy another MB, BMW, AUDI--but a truly custom choice is Porsche. I hope they don't change a thing
(well maybe lower the cost on everything and take less profit, but we all know that ain't happening)
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Porsche has been getting very stingy about increasing power output and I have harped on this on other threads. I have been brand loyal for 20 years but I think my current 991 will be my last 911. I cannot justify the ever increasing costs with the ever decreasing power increases. There are too many variants of 911. In my opinion there should just be a "911" and a "911 turbo". Who needs a base, S, GTS , etc.. just make the naturally aspirated 911 as good as engineering will allow and we will buy it. Don't hold back the parts like the "power kit" that make the car better. The car should have that stuff standard. I will no longer pay $100k for a 350hp car when I can pay $65k for a 420hp M4 with 400 lbs of torque and a $900 reflash will have that car near 500hp... or maybe a Jaguar F type coupe for $90k and over 500hp.....the much improved Corvette for $60k and 450hp...... Porsche is lagging far behind and the exodus will continue until the ship is righted and they start offering VALUE for the dollar.
This is really my point here. Porsche does keep weight down in comparison to the competitors, but it really has to in order to compete with the more powerful Corvette, M4, etc. They need to put a 4.0 liter engine in this car. Porsche is very good at the turbocharging concept, why not use that ability and offer a more affordable 911?
I will NOT pay $100k for a car again unless we are up over 450 hp.
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oh boy here we go again with "my daddy can lick your daddy". ha ha
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I wasn't trolling. Commenting on snob appeal does not make one a troll.
I am in process of buying a 911 C4S. I also have an issue with driving a Chevy. I am just willing to admit that I don't like the brand and the looks of the car, not that I think it delivers inferior performance. It is also important to me that I drive a car that looks expensive which is why I don't want either a BMW M4 or a Corvette.
Also if you think it should be illegal to say another brand delivers more performance for the dollar, then what you are saying is you don't want anyone competing for share with Porsche. You'd rather they are free to charge whatever they want. To me we all benefit when someone competes with Porsche and the more we recognize the competition the more it influences product pricing in our favor.
I am in process of buying a 911 C4S. I also have an issue with driving a Chevy. I am just willing to admit that I don't like the brand and the looks of the car, not that I think it delivers inferior performance. It is also important to me that I drive a car that looks expensive which is why I don't want either a BMW M4 or a Corvette.
Also if you think it should be illegal to say another brand delivers more performance for the dollar, then what you are saying is you don't want anyone competing for share with Porsche. You'd rather they are free to charge whatever they want. To me we all benefit when someone competes with Porsche and the more we recognize the competition the more it influences product pricing in our favor.
Yep, in this sense the competition from the M4 and Corvette could be a good thing. When I was growing up, we had Chevys. The first car I ever bought with my own money was a Chevy. And you know what? It turned me off eventually because it wouldn't start on a sunny 80 degree day when there was nothing wrong with the battery and it had 15,000 miles on it. You can't erase that memory from my mind.
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I don't get this snob stuff. I'd love to have a Vette and a Mustang in my garage to go with my Carrera S. I could even stomach a Z-28, one of those loud flashy JagUars, and in extremes, a Ferrari 458 if, you know, I was forced. On the other hand I would resist having to drive a GTR all the time rather than once in awhile. OK I guess I am a snob.
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I don't get this snob stuff. I'd love to have a Vette and a Mustang in my garage to go with my Carrera S. I could even stomach a Z-28, one of those loud flashy JagUars, and in extremes, a Ferrari 458 if, you know, I was forced. On the other hand I would resist having to drive a GTR all the time rather than once in awhile. OK I guess I am a snob.
The old one just felt too cheap with all the plastic. The new one is the real deal.
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You're not entirely correct here.
Take BMW. BMW gets better economies of scale through use of packages which drive more options to more people.
At the same time BMW Individual offers the same or more customization than Porsche Exclusive offers. The Frozen Grey paint on my M5 or the special order Platinum leather with contrast stitching in my old M5 being some examples. BMW will even sew your family crest in color on your headrests for you.
Porsche does offer customization, but they also nickel and dime features everybody wants and unnecessarily drive up cost and dealer inventory complexity for the average buyer.
Take BMW. BMW gets better economies of scale through use of packages which drive more options to more people.
At the same time BMW Individual offers the same or more customization than Porsche Exclusive offers. The Frozen Grey paint on my M5 or the special order Platinum leather with contrast stitching in my old M5 being some examples. BMW will even sew your family crest in color on your headrests for you.
Porsche does offer customization, but they also nickel and dime features everybody wants and unnecessarily drive up cost and dealer inventory complexity for the average buyer.
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Really, that's news to me and I thought I was a discerning buyer. Well you learn something everyday. So I'm going to assume that by contrast, you are a discerning buyer. What options would the discerning buyer have purchased?
I am not picking on this answer specifically, but what's the whole deal about hp in this thread??? "Max hp" alone means nothing (except for claiming bragging rights).
Are you guys looking with for a different type of torque delivery to get more oomph in daily driving? higher top speed? quicker 0 to 60 etc?
"Fast" (which does not mean much either) is a much about power delivery as weight, suspension etc. I am not saying than more power is not a good thing but looking at hp/$ is not the most relevant approach. Sorry if I am just stating the obvious.
If you look at the following chart and check the power output of the different NA 911, you'll see that significant progress was made without adding big chunks of power. The 612hp 5.7l V10 Carrera GT is only 9s faster than a 400hp 991 C2S.
Would I like to have the 475hp of the 991 GT3? Does the Power kit make sense to someone who wants 30hp more and uses them? Sure yes, but it does not mean that I feel I have paid too much for a car with only 400hp.
This is just my take on it. In the end, whatever float your boat is fine: badge, hp, track time... Different people have different criteria.
Are you guys looking with for a different type of torque delivery to get more oomph in daily driving? higher top speed? quicker 0 to 60 etc?
"Fast" (which does not mean much either) is a much about power delivery as weight, suspension etc. I am not saying than more power is not a good thing but looking at hp/$ is not the most relevant approach. Sorry if I am just stating the obvious.
If you look at the following chart and check the power output of the different NA 911, you'll see that significant progress was made without adding big chunks of power. The 612hp 5.7l V10 Carrera GT is only 9s faster than a 400hp 991 C2S.
Would I like to have the 475hp of the 991 GT3? Does the Power kit make sense to someone who wants 30hp more and uses them? Sure yes, but it does not mean that I feel I have paid too much for a car with only 400hp.
This is just my take on it. In the end, whatever float your boat is fine: badge, hp, track time... Different people have different criteria.
Last edited by SM_ATL; Jan 14, 2014 at 05:15 PM.
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I am not picking on this answer specifically, but what's the whole deal about hp in this thread??? "Max hp" alone means nothing (except for claiming bragging rights).
Are you guys looking with for a different type of torque delivery to get more oomph in daily driving? higher top speed? quicker 0 to 60 etc?
"Fast" (which does not mean much either) is a much about power delivery as weight, suspension etc. I am not saying than more power is not a good thing but looking at hp/$ is not the most relevant approach. Sorry if I am just stating the obvious.
If you look at the following chart and check the power output of the different NA 911, you'll see that significant progress was made without adding big chunks of power. The 612hp 5.7l V10 Carrera GT is only 9s faster than a 400hp 991 C2S.
Would I like to have the 475hp of the 991 GT3? Does the Power kit make sense to someone who wants 30hp more and uses them? Sure yes, but it does not mean that I feel I have paid too much for a car with only 400hp.
This is just my take on it. In the end, whatever float your boat is fine: badge, hp, track time... Different people have different criteria.
Are you guys looking with for a different type of torque delivery to get more oomph in daily driving? higher top speed? quicker 0 to 60 etc?
"Fast" (which does not mean much either) is a much about power delivery as weight, suspension etc. I am not saying than more power is not a good thing but looking at hp/$ is not the most relevant approach. Sorry if I am just stating the obvious.
If you look at the following chart and check the power output of the different NA 911, you'll see that significant progress was made without adding big chunks of power. The 612hp 5.7l V10 Carrera GT is only 9s faster than a 400hp 991 C2S.
Would I like to have the 475hp of the 991 GT3? Does the Power kit make sense to someone who wants 30hp more and uses them? Sure yes, but it does not mean that I feel I have paid too much for a car with only 400hp.
This is just my take on it. In the end, whatever float your boat is fine: badge, hp, track time... Different people have different criteria.
I keep pointing these times out to different people in different threads. Power is one thing; performance is another. Everyone complains about cars having more power than the 991; what they fail to realize is that our Porsches weigh just 3,000lbs and put the power down better than most other cars that are used in comparisons. The 991S has faster 'Ring times than a SLS AMG, an E92 M3 GTS, a SLR McLaren, pre-2013 GT-Rs, etc.
The 991/991S aren't about horsepower numbers. They're pure sports cars that are blessed with a touch of luxury and class, yet can hold their own on the track.
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Based on my one drive where i had a chance to use those speeds, I conclude:
- anyone who uses those revs will find it worth every penny
- anyone who doesn't will think they have been ripped off
- anyone who has not had the experience is not in a position to judge
