Paul I could take all the insults but man oh man that dish washing job is hitting below the freaking belt! That was the final straw that caused me to go nuts. I agree the young man is a Porsche enthusiast; his problem seems to be that he reads numerous web sites/reviews without stopping to ponder if things make sense, then imagine all of these internet reviews into his driving. That's how he came up with weird crap like his 997.2 Turbo being faster than GT2 at the track.

I brought up his infamous 100 mph-curve lift throttle test because it is related to an interesting discussion of 997.1 Turbo's behavior.
At the time of 997.1 Turbo's initial release 4-5 years ago, there were "rumors" about some problems with its suspension. We didn't know then, but now it is no secret as Porsche engineers talked about these issues at the release of 997.2. Basically there are two "acknowledged" problems with 997.1 Turbo:
1. Understeer
2. Soft suspension

The understeer arises from a few sources:
first, an AWD car tends to understeer,
second, the PTM system was sending too much power to the front wheel,
third, the front camber of the Turbo is set too docile (not negative enough, only around -0.6) as it is meant to be a daily driver.
(997.2 Turbo therefore has stiffer springs/sway bars, AND sends less power to front wheel (more like a 2WD car), particularly in high speed, large radius sweeping curve. As a result, 997.2 Turbo *oversteers* more than 997.1. It is designed to be that way.)

"eclou" one of our moderators btw was the very first person to notice the understeer, ahead of the reviewers, ahead of everyone. He had talked about increasing front camber before anyone else outside of Porsche testers even had an inkling of what the problem was. This is why a lot of us ended up doing what he did: Bilstein for stiffer springs, and more negative camber. Voila, you now have a world beater daily driver.
Our friend Petey/Troy of course is completely 180 degree from this observation, talking rubbish non-sense about only 997.1 has lift throttle *over*steer, not his prized 997.2.

 

Yes reality had sadly taken leave even before Petey01 morphed into Troy38. Oh well...Sigh. I guess over at Mississippi Mansion HQ washing dishes is a privilege for penniless down and out dorky hobos' in .1tt's with noisy exhausts and swags Petey/Troy should have realised flattery will get you nowhere.
Anyway....putting the frivolity to one side (for just a second) and back on topic (well sort of), and looking back on what was also said there's an interesting point in that the weight of the 991tt car may (possibly) not pose the same issue if Porsche can master GTR's wizardry particularly when you consider the nurburgring time set by the new GTR.....and the fact it's no lightweight. So in that regard pigs can be made to fly IYKWIM. Food for thought. Just imagine if Porsche ever utilised the unused rear seat space in its GT car line up and moved the engine even further forward again.. It would be goodnight GTR....and pretty well everything else.

 

I agree with you as long as you're not talking about a PDK car.

We can go back and forth all day, but if you want the fastest 911, PDK cuts a full second off BOTH 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times (the fastest car ever with the excpetion of the 1-2 miilion Veyron).

911 turbos have never been consistent acceleration kings. YES they are damn fast, but you really need to beat that manual to get great times. The 997 cars have a huge advantage because they come with a taller 1st gear which really helps. Still, getting consistent launches and time takes real skill and a willingness to hurry the tranny. The cable operated trannys in the 911 lineup hate to be rushed.

The Metzger engine in the 997.1 is the ultimate evolution of the original 911 turbo motor and is as stout as they come. PLUS they have the best fueling and air metering in the lineup.

A stiffer rear bar, fatter front tires and more negative camber really dialed out a LOT of under-steer on my 996. I imagine the 997 is no different in this regard

BTW Cannga. I've had my car at GIAC a few times and have the same exact story as you! Feels like a day at the candy store. Garrett and his gang are very nice and know their stuff!

 

Paul, **very** very good point about GTR's 7:34 'ring time to indicate pigs could fly. I knew someone might bring it up and already have given the idea some thought: That heavy Nissan pig could definitely fly, but only because it is a "reverse" pig with engine completely on the other end - totally different chassis. 991 is still very much a rear engine chassis and the twins and I were discussing power/weight ratio within this context of similar cars.
Note also, that the Nissan uses much stiffer tire (stiff-wall run-flat) & per report *appears* to have relatively stiffer suspension. Essentially, not only chassis is different, GTR has other "advantageous" components that the Turbo will never have.

Within the 911 family, I sadly think the law of physics might have finally caught up to this rear engine format and do not see *any* future street Turbo passing 7:24 of GT2 RS unless engine becomes a lot more powerful and/or is moved much further north than the 2 inches of 991, as you've mentioned. Porsche has already indicated very clearly this move to mid engine 911 is never going to happen. As far as power, unless PDK is improved, there will be a limit as to how much 991 Turbo's power could go up. Lastly one will have to question whether Porsche is that interested in making a street car w/ 7:24 ring time and have amateur Porsche drivers with more $$ than driving-experience kill themselves and others on city roads.

Even if our young twins Petey and Troy got extremely lucky and 400 lbs heavier 991 Turbo on street tires and soft springs passes GT2 RS, what can I say, even a dead clock is correct twice a day. I just don't see it happening though.

 

 

I completely agree with your thinking here. Ring time is one thing that tells the world how capable a car is going around one crazy track. But to have a super car to be in the hands of the amateur owners throughout the world could be dangerous. I am that amateur

I say the cars are fast enough already. They will just keep improving on esthetics, materials used, and integrate more technology into the car now. Speaking of technology - I wish Porsche never replaces the traditional car key "auto start" button. There is that instant grin when you start the car after work... the twist on the wrist and the beast comes alive...

 

Going faster is going to require a car to be lighter. It's going to be a hydrogen turbine with a single speed converter and perfect 50/50 balance. The current (!) 991 is going to have 10 year life span. Thereafter, hydrogen is ready and rolling.Why not??

 

. Pay that.

Damn that Porsche's 7.18 time is making it tough on pigs.

http://www.gtrinformation.com/2010/1...gring-wet-run/

It will be interesting to see what 991tt accomplishes against the 997.2tts though. Considering how Porsche operates 991tt is bound to be faster everywhere (faster than 997tts .2 for sure) and Porsche loves to keep the driver in the equation regardless of the gizmos. Thankfully the brand stands for driver involvement. I'm also not so sure about Porsche being at the end of its rope with the rear engine layout. Just when you think it can't possibly get better a rabbit is pulled out of the hat to remind you just how evolution never stops at Porsche for the 911. I recall 996. That car drove so good on its day compared to 993 and then 997 came out and demolished it. 991tt will be the same no doubt. But yes, agree to make it beat the .2ttrs's 7.18 at the ring will require some pigs to fly. But no worries. Meantime us hobos in 997.1tts will just slum it in our beach huts dreaming of owning .2tt.

 

^^^Paul, agreed. We think alike in this matter: I expect newer 911's to be "better" in general, and faster - that's why we love this company. The complaint has always been about that elusive and controversial "road feel" though as we get newer and faster. I believe this is why some 997 Turbo owners continue to hold on to their 993 - I believe them and am tempted sometimes, even though in general I don't like old cars.
In the 991, I am curious about the new electric motor assisted steering - we shall see.

Yes that 7:18 is fast - that's Walter Rorhl driving. Horst von Saurma's time with Sport Auto in GT2 RS is 7:24 and probably the more fair number to quote. The difference is either Porsche doctoring their car or simply what's known as the "Walter Rorhl's factor." WR is just faster than anyone else in 911.
Nissan GT-R: an enigma huh? I think the 2009 one tested 7:38, then the newer 2010 one went even faster 7:34 (versus the twins' 997.2 Turbo at 7:47). But all things considered, still *not* a Porsche. Goes to show even the very important 'ring time is not everything and in the end the major weakness of that car is it's a fugly pig (for real this time 3900 lbs). No flame Nissan people pls: I wouldn't mind owning one.

 

Yes I am "forever" thankful for the GIAC guys to let me in behind the scene. What an eye-opening experience - I learned so much.
I still have an open invitation for another custom tune if I am ever interested in new intercooler.

Chassis dyno tune at GIAC headquarter and testing 2010 GT3 against my Turbo with a professional driver remain the 2 most treasured experiences of my car's hobby.

 

1) Electric steering. Just reading the very latest article today actually; quoting 911 grandmaster Rohrl as saying "Athough the new steering may face the odd acceptance problem among porsche purists, it is in my view superior to a conventional rack. It can support the driver, by enhancing the self centering motion or the directional stability on split-friction surfaces". There is further elaboration on how and why it is better but the clear message is it performs better than the existing set up. So there you have it Can. If WR says its better then thats got to be the case....so let wingers winge....as they will do regardless. Anyway...

2) Onto the flying pig. GTR is articled as working on defeating the .2ttrs's ring time whilst we speak...reducing weight to a target 1600kg (funny how they never said weight was an issue before) and the new car GT-R EVO thats being devised to recapture the ring time will deliver the goods, available next April. So there you have it. The pig is finally on a diet with a view to fly. And yes while it's no raving beauty i also wouldn't mind owning one too. But only if i cant afford 991tt (at least i'm prepared to be honest). So it may very well come down to a new 991tt and a smashed up beach hut or, GTR evo and keep the Mississippi mansion JK. And no flame to the GTR boys. We love them .

 

Add on topic since this seems to be a frequently asked question lately:

GT3 versus Turbo - IMHO:

Power - Turbo wins: If you want something faster, yes, the Turbo will obliterate GT3, and probably 90% plus of sports cars out there for that matter, in straight-line acceleration. There are really very few cars like it when it comes to power.

Handling - GT3 wins: If you want something with better handling, GT3 is the un-questioned champion. As a couple of people have mentioned, the Turbo is designed primarily as a grand tourer. It is relatively soft and comfortable (nothing wrong with this, if that's what you are looking for).Stock Turbo, particularly the first generation 997.1 Turbo, feels very soft, even softer than a C2S (this surprised a lot of people who switch from C2, including me). This is why guys on GT3 forum seem to always have such disdain for the Turbo's handling. The Turbo's faster track speed is much more a result of its incredible power than its handling prowess.

The 911's with the best handling are, as mentioned already by a few people here, GT3, and GT2 (and the mid engine Cayman/Boxster of course, but these are not 911's obviously). However, note that there is a trade-off between ride and handling, as handling improves, ride will suffer. In other words:
1. Turbo: great speed, soft grand tourer (relatively). World's best "daily driver." Drive car as is, or if you want to improve handling, use coilover (see my signature) or lowering springs. I am in love with my Turbo baby and wish more people could share the pleasure grin. Zero wish or need to switch to GT3 once the suspension is modified with Bilstein. The second Porsche I want is now the mid-engine Boxster/Cayman, because to me their fast and pure handling are inherently superior to 911's.
2. GT3: great speed only above 5000 rpm and even at that can't match the Turbo. But world class handling, the "purest" 911 and the ultimate track car, even more so than GT2. Handling, steering, NA engine characteristic, this car is pure delight. It just has no torque/power to speak off when compared against the Turbo, especially at lower rpm. In straight-line, and only straight-line, the Turbo will pass it as if it's standing still, especially at low rpm. If you are young and into self torture, it can be used as a daily driver, if you are getting older, forget it. Noisy, stiff suspension, un-usually and un-necessarily stiff clutch (IMHO), just don't. Lastly the RMS leak makes owning GT3 possibly problematic.
3. GT2: great speed, and world class handling. Best of both worlds, but still much more a track car than a street car (sitting position so very low, stiff ride, very stiff clutch, cup tire dangerous when wet, etc.). In a dream garage, I would probably pick a Turbo + used GT3, or Turbo + Cayman combination over a GT2.

If this is a daily driver, the Turbo is the overwhelming choice of the 3 above. *If* this is not a daily driver, or if it's for the track, and you have never driven a GT3, you must. Not typical dealer test drive; I mean a *real* test if at all possible, done safely at the track for example. The GT3 does not wake up until 5000 rpm and has to be driven that way to fully realize its potential. At higher speed and in tight curves, the GT3 will put both your 997 and Turbo 997 to shame. (As mentioned, this is why a number of people on this forum modify their Turbo's with lowering springs or coilovers.)

Each car has its strengths and weaknesses and the choice is strictly personal (no right or wrong, no 911 is "better" than the other 911's in all aspects, power vs. ride vs. handling, etc.). A test drive in both the Turbo and a GT class car however is a requirement for a good decision. Good luck and have fun.

 

I just finally took the time to read this entire thread and would like to thank everyone who participated in the documentation of knowledge found here.

Now I want the 997.1 I've been looking at even more! I swear when I tell other people why it is THE car to have, they always come up with silly arguments and I remember that there are some things better left unsaid. I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about :lol:

John

 

Porsche is a very logical next-step for M3 owners. A couple friends with BMW (M3 & series) and I always tease them when we pass in hallways "not a Porsche," all in good spirit of course.

Good luck - you won't regret it. The Turbo should have enough power to hold your interest.

 

More car talk regarding my 997 Turbo vs. 997 GT3 comparison above: I would like to add that I think 991 GT3 is going to be one stunning addition to the Porsche lineup.

I always feel that PDK and automatic type transmissions hides the lack of low end torque - they make the car feel subjectively faster and add to the pleasure of acceleration, therefore I think this is a perfect match for Porsche NA flat 6, which has little power at low rpm (relatively). Although I know people are crying foul over the lack of a manual transmission in the new GT3, I would not mind having PDK GT3 at all. I believe this thing would be an absolute animal at the track and will obliterate previous GT3's 'Ring times.

One huge advantage IMHO, regarding the new engine in GT3: time will tell but at least GT3's are finally free from RMS problem. And it looks like the semi or fake or whatever dry sum system is able to tolerate excessive lateral g-force at the track after all.