997.2 vs 997.1 Turbo
#1
10-14-2011, 03:20 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,115
Rep Power: 254 
997.2 vs 997.1 Turbo
In a recent discussion, someone asked me about 997.2 versus 997.1 Turbo. Up until now, I have thought that any new model Porsche will be "better" than previous model and will at least make it *look* obsolete. (And if you've read my criticism of stock 997.1 Turbo's suspension and exhaust, you know I don't pull punches just because I own this car.) It seemed the answer should be obvious, newer is better. However the 997.1 Turbo has a huge trump card, and that is the Mezger engine. Read up on google but essentially the Mezger engine of 997.1 (named after the engineer who designed it) is easily Porsche's most famous engine in its storied history, with tremendous pedigree and heritage. It is race derived, responsible for many victories, and its worth is well proven over many years by Porsche's racing teams. Between new turbo engine of 997.2 versus old Mezger turbo engine of 997.1, I used to think I don't care which engine as long as power is delivered, but the more I think about it, the more I am leaning towards changing my opinion. In another thread upgrading 997.2 turbo 6speed manual Tom of Champion was talking about the internals of 997.2 Turbo engine and mentioned restriction of fuel system and rods testing 25% weaker. What crossed my mind reading his post is...what *ELSE* is weaker in the 997.2 engine?
The only exception I would add is this: with respect to suspension, if you are NOT going to mod the suspension, then the 997.2 Turbo is the better choice. 997.2's PASM system is the second generation and is much better than 997.1, which was Porsche's first attempt at PASM and somewhat of a design flaw (why a number of people here use Bilstein coilover or lowering springs). 997.1's PASM is either way too soft or way too stiff between the 2 suspension settings, 997.2's PASM is a lot more usable and smoother on the stiffer setting. There were a number of other revisions (spring rate, sway bar, PTM system) that make 997.2 better - the advantage of 4 years of experience. In order of suspension ranking I would rank thus, not for everyone, only for those looking for a more aggressive handling car: Bilstein 997.2 > Bilstein 997.1 > stock 997.2 >>> stock 997.1.
So, perhaps 997.1 Turbo, mainly because of the Mezger engine, will go down in history as the best Turbo ever? Perhaps owners of these cars should hold on and not sell? Perhaps potential owners should look for low mileage samples of 997.1, and not 997.2? For sure, for the purpose of modding, there will NEVER again be an engine that is as mod-friendly and as robust as the Mezger engine. (It is simply too expensive to be made nowadays.) Unlike the Mezger GT3 engine, which has problem with RMS leak, the Mezger Turbo is THE perfect engine.
Bottom line: IMHO anyone here looking to buy a used Turbo, if you see a low mile 997.1 Turbo, with PCCB/Chrono/Adaptive Sport Seat -- jump on it! All 3 years of Mezger Turbo's, 2007 to 2009, are remarkably trouble free. Just look at this board (versus a BMW board for example) then it should become obvious to you. The most common problem is leaking from the powered steering and brake slave cylinder, but this could be easily and cheaply fixed and obviously minor compared to other potential problems with drivetrain, engine, electronics, etc.
In looking at used cars, IMHO it is more important to get the DME readout and check for overrev's, and look for a CPO, low mileage, non-modded car, preferably with PCCB. 2009 is most desirable because it has the new PCM 2 with bluetooth and ipod functions and touchscreen. You *can* add after-market bluetooth and ipod functions to 2007 and 2008 Turbo's (I use MoBridge in my 2008, work well in general and do all the functions but I don't recommend it because it has a beeping noise, a design flaw; Dension is probably the best choice at this point.) but as in all after-market products, they would have glitches here and there and will never be as good as OEM. My opinions-YMMV:
EXTREMELY DESIREABLE OPTIONS:
1. PCCB, if you don't track (if you track, regular brake is safer): PCCB has same stopping distance as big red but significantly superior feel and "initial bite." People have likened the feel to being stopped by the hands of God :-). While PCCB is not for everyone, it is one of those things that IMHO you must try once in your life, and once you've tried it chances are you are not going to like the iron brake anymore. Also don't forget 35 lbs. reduction in unsprung weight and rotational mass, which also benefits steering, ride, and handling. The only time that I wouldn't recommend PCCB is if you track the car a lot AND don't have extra $$$ (complicated story, search forum; some people do use PCCB even on the track), otherwise for aggressive street use gen. II PCCB has proven to be around 100% reliable. BTW for all practical purposes the PCCB discs don't wear out, not until way past 100,000 per rumor anyway; you change the pads once every 35000 miles or so and that's it. Take this car quick before someone else on this forum does LOL.
2. *** :-) - Adaptive Sport Seat: Far and away the best seat available and far and away best daily drive seat in all the cars I've drives. This hundred-thousand plus car deserves this seat. Has deeper seat bolsters and deeper seat-back's bolsters to keep you in place when attacking those canyon curves. Very expensive to add later. I believe the only exception is if you are very large/heavy (no offense intended), in which case your torso may not fit comfortably because of the deep bolsters.
3. Sport Chrono (can be added but another costly pain). Another Sport Chrono Question - What else does SC do?
1. PSM (decreased with Sport Mode --- less intrusive)
2. PASM (increased with Sport Mode --- stiffer dampening)
3. PTM (the 4WD system becomes more rearward bias -- more power to rear)
4. TCU -- Tiptronic (more "sporty" shift pattern)
5. ECU (increased turbo boost)
6. ETC (more responsive electronic throttle control)
4. Manual transmission
Not a criticism of those who like automatic and meant only for people on the fence whether to get auto vs. manual. I have both types of transmissions (Porsche Turbo manual and BMW M3 PDK), love both and clearly the PDK is faster, but if forced to have one, I would still settle on the manual for the intangible "driver-engagement" aspect. As manual transmission is in danger of being eliminated completely from future 911's, IMHO it is even more imperative for the manual die-hard people (you know who you are) to hold on to your manual Turbo and to look for one in your purchase decision.
5. Low Mileage
A high mileage car has wear and tear in interior and exterior parts obviously, in suspension components, in engine components, etc., etc.; it's more likely to have hidden damage from usage; it **feels OLD** and loose (from wear and tear of suspension bushings, links, etc.). I would still recommend that if you see 3 Turbo's: 5000 miles, 30000 miles, 60000 miles,*all else* being equal, pay a little more and JUMP
on the 5000 one; 30000 miles is second choice if it fits your budget better, and skip the 60000 unless it's the only one you could afford.
MODERATELY DESIREABLE:
1. Sport Steering Wheel (smaller diameter and thicker grip vs. multi function wheel). The Sport Steering Wheel has a round hub and the important thumb rests at 2 and 10 o'clock; this is the one you want. The Multi Function Wheel with a triangular hub and radio controls, etc., is not as desirable because it is slighter larger, with thinner grip (not good!), and most importantly does not have the thumb rests. Because it is so expensive to switch steering wheel, one could argue that this is a high level can't miss also. If you don't have the Sport Steering, there is still hope: Techart after-market steering wheel is considerably better than all stock wheels, if a touch costly.
2. Limited Slip Differential: so cheap as an option, so costly to add later. If owner ordered this option, he is a connoisseur and surely a member of some Porsche forum. :-)
3. No Engine Mod: YMMV but unless you are an expert, I personally would stay from any used car with aggressive, high power, engine mod. There have been some spectacular failures reported over the years from aggressively modded used cars.
COULD BE ADDED LATER:
1. Sport/Short Shifter (trust me you will love it): Perhaps not *that* critical because this could be added for only a few hundred bucks (750 included labor??). In addition, it is fun to try the standard long one, THEN switch to be amazed by how different, and better, the shorter one feels. This SSK option is firmer, less rubbery, more precise. Huge improvement for so little money.
The only exception I would add is this: with respect to suspension, if you are NOT going to mod the suspension, then the 997.2 Turbo is the better choice. 997.2's PASM system is the second generation and is much better than 997.1, which was Porsche's first attempt at PASM and somewhat of a design flaw (why a number of people here use Bilstein coilover or lowering springs). 997.1's PASM is either way too soft or way too stiff between the 2 suspension settings, 997.2's PASM is a lot more usable and smoother on the stiffer setting. There were a number of other revisions (spring rate, sway bar, PTM system) that make 997.2 better - the advantage of 4 years of experience. In order of suspension ranking I would rank thus, not for everyone, only for those looking for a more aggressive handling car: Bilstein 997.2 > Bilstein 997.1 > stock 997.2 >>> stock 997.1.
So, perhaps 997.1 Turbo, mainly because of the Mezger engine, will go down in history as the best Turbo ever? Perhaps owners of these cars should hold on and not sell? Perhaps potential owners should look for low mileage samples of 997.1, and not 997.2? For sure, for the purpose of modding, there will NEVER again be an engine that is as mod-friendly and as robust as the Mezger engine. (It is simply too expensive to be made nowadays.) Unlike the Mezger GT3 engine, which has problem with RMS leak, the Mezger Turbo is THE perfect engine.
Bottom line: IMHO anyone here looking to buy a used Turbo, if you see a low mile 997.1 Turbo, with PCCB/Chrono/Adaptive Sport Seat -- jump on it! All 3 years of Mezger Turbo's, 2007 to 2009, are remarkably trouble free. Just look at this board (versus a BMW board for example) then it should become obvious to you. The most common problem is leaking from the powered steering and brake slave cylinder, but this could be easily and cheaply fixed and obviously minor compared to other potential problems with drivetrain, engine, electronics, etc.
In looking at used cars, IMHO it is more important to get the DME readout and check for overrev's, and look for a CPO, low mileage, non-modded car, preferably with PCCB. 2009 is most desirable because it has the new PCM 2 with bluetooth and ipod functions and touchscreen. You *can* add after-market bluetooth and ipod functions to 2007 and 2008 Turbo's (I use MoBridge in my 2008, work well in general and do all the functions but I don't recommend it because it has a beeping noise, a design flaw; Dension is probably the best choice at this point.) but as in all after-market products, they would have glitches here and there and will never be as good as OEM. My opinions-YMMV:
EXTREMELY DESIREABLE OPTIONS:
1. PCCB, if you don't track (if you track, regular brake is safer): PCCB has same stopping distance as big red but significantly superior feel and "initial bite." People have likened the feel to being stopped by the hands of God :-). While PCCB is not for everyone, it is one of those things that IMHO you must try once in your life, and once you've tried it chances are you are not going to like the iron brake anymore. Also don't forget 35 lbs. reduction in unsprung weight and rotational mass, which also benefits steering, ride, and handling. The only time that I wouldn't recommend PCCB is if you track the car a lot AND don't have extra $$$ (complicated story, search forum; some people do use PCCB even on the track), otherwise for aggressive street use gen. II PCCB has proven to be around 100% reliable. BTW for all practical purposes the PCCB discs don't wear out, not until way past 100,000 per rumor anyway; you change the pads once every 35000 miles or so and that's it. Take this car quick before someone else on this forum does LOL.
2. *** :-) - Adaptive Sport Seat: Far and away the best seat available and far and away best daily drive seat in all the cars I've drives. This hundred-thousand plus car deserves this seat. Has deeper seat bolsters and deeper seat-back's bolsters to keep you in place when attacking those canyon curves. Very expensive to add later. I believe the only exception is if you are very large/heavy (no offense intended), in which case your torso may not fit comfortably because of the deep bolsters.
3. Sport Chrono (can be added but another costly pain). Another Sport Chrono Question - What else does SC do?
1. PSM (decreased with Sport Mode --- less intrusive)
2. PASM (increased with Sport Mode --- stiffer dampening)
3. PTM (the 4WD system becomes more rearward bias -- more power to rear)
4. TCU -- Tiptronic (more "sporty" shift pattern)
5. ECU (increased turbo boost)
6. ETC (more responsive electronic throttle control)
4. Manual transmission
Not a criticism of those who like automatic and meant only for people on the fence whether to get auto vs. manual. I have both types of transmissions (Porsche Turbo manual and BMW M3 PDK), love both and clearly the PDK is faster, but if forced to have one, I would still settle on the manual for the intangible "driver-engagement" aspect. As manual transmission is in danger of being eliminated completely from future 911's, IMHO it is even more imperative for the manual die-hard people (you know who you are) to hold on to your manual Turbo and to look for one in your purchase decision.
5. Low Mileage
A high mileage car has wear and tear in interior and exterior parts obviously, in suspension components, in engine components, etc., etc.; it's more likely to have hidden damage from usage; it **feels OLD** and loose (from wear and tear of suspension bushings, links, etc.). I would still recommend that if you see 3 Turbo's: 5000 miles, 30000 miles, 60000 miles,*all else* being equal, pay a little more and JUMP
on the 5000 one; 30000 miles is second choice if it fits your budget better, and skip the 60000 unless it's the only one you could afford.MODERATELY DESIREABLE:
1. Sport Steering Wheel (smaller diameter and thicker grip vs. multi function wheel). The Sport Steering Wheel has a round hub and the important thumb rests at 2 and 10 o'clock; this is the one you want. The Multi Function Wheel with a triangular hub and radio controls, etc., is not as desirable because it is slighter larger, with thinner grip (not good!), and most importantly does not have the thumb rests. Because it is so expensive to switch steering wheel, one could argue that this is a high level can't miss also. If you don't have the Sport Steering, there is still hope: Techart after-market steering wheel is considerably better than all stock wheels, if a touch costly.
2. Limited Slip Differential: so cheap as an option, so costly to add later. If owner ordered this option, he is a connoisseur and surely a member of some Porsche forum. :-)
3. No Engine Mod: YMMV but unless you are an expert, I personally would stay from any used car with aggressive, high power, engine mod. There have been some spectacular failures reported over the years from aggressively modded used cars.
COULD BE ADDED LATER:
1. Sport/Short Shifter (trust me you will love it): Perhaps not *that* critical because this could be added for only a few hundred bucks (750 included labor??). In addition, it is fun to try the standard long one, THEN switch to be amazed by how different, and better, the shorter one feels. This SSK option is firmer, less rubbery, more precise. Huge improvement for so little money.
Last edited by cannga; 03-17-2016 at 09:53 AM.
#3
10-14-2011, 03:35 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,115
Rep Power: 254
^^^It is the best **GT2** ever. 
Note well Porsche nomenclature - Turbo with a capitalized T refers to specifically Turbo model. GT2RS is a turbo charged car, but it's not a Turbo.
Half-kidding aside, and more importantly, while the Mezger is gone for Turbo, we don't know yet what next generation GT2 will bring. 991 GT2RS might still retain Mezger engine.
Note well Porsche nomenclature - Turbo with a capitalized T refers to specifically Turbo model. GT2RS is a turbo charged car, but it's not a Turbo.Half-kidding aside, and more importantly, while the Mezger is gone for Turbo, we don't know yet what next generation GT2 will bring. 991 GT2RS might still retain Mezger engine.
Last edited by cannga; 10-14-2011 at 03:38 PM.
#4
10-14-2011, 03:48 PM
Similar to the old Ford 7.3 diesel engines compaired to the newer 6.0. Never knew why company makes a big change to something that was not broken.
#6
10-14-2011, 09:55 PM
Can: agreed. I started a similar thread more than a year ago.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...esing-2-a.html
#7
10-14-2011, 10:01 PM
agreed the .2 lights look great (i mean who wouldn't want them?), but if having the choice between LEDs or porsche's masterpiece engine...I would choose the heart of the car any time.
If the 991 GT3/RS retains a version of the mezger (pleeeeease), I wonder how many current .1 TT owners make that their next target car.
If the 991 GT3/RS retains a version of the mezger (pleeeeease), I wonder how many current .1 TT owners make that their next target car.
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#8
10-14-2011, 10:06 PM
The Mezger was a big part of my decison to go with an 08. As to the newer engine, lighter engine weight = weaker components. A tradeoff . I felt more comfortable buying a used Mezger because any PO couldn't hurt it that much. I'd be more hesitant on the newer turbos.
#10
10-14-2011, 10:08 PM
agreed the .2 lights look great (i mean who wouldn't want them?), but if having the choice between LEDs or porsche's masterpiece engine...I would choose the heart of the car any time.
If the 991 GT3/RS retains a version of the mezger (pleeeeease), I wonder how many current .1 TT owners make that their next target car.
If the 991 GT3/RS retains a version of the mezger (pleeeeease), I wonder how many current .1 TT owners make that their next target car.
)
#11
10-14-2011, 10:44 PM
Yeah, I'm talking about the front .2 lights... the dynamic headlights are amazing imo. Arling was saying you can retrofit them but the moving light part won't work.. boo.
Rear is easy enough to change (although will cost $$$). Cosmetically, the fronts are virtually the same (aside from the headlights).
Can: agreed. I started a similar thread more than a year ago.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...esing-2-a.html
Can: agreed. I started a similar thread more than a year ago.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...esing-2-a.html
#12
10-14-2011, 10:48 PM
I defy 99.9% of the population to be able the differentiate b/w 'regular' and dynamic headlights. I rarely drive the turbo at night anyway
#13
10-15-2011, 12:12 AM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,115
Rep Power: 254 There have been debates before & deep down I have so far preferred the newer 997.2 car - who cares about Mezger, as long as power is there. The post by Tom caused me to re-think and turn my opinion 180 degrees. I now feel very good about my Turbo, just knowing about the gem of an engine back there (pride of ownership?). The rules of the game have changed, restrictions for better fuel economy & cleaner air, cheaper engine, etc., such that we will never see something like this GT1 engine again in a daily driver. Thus the title of "best ever."
BTW, good luck to all those looking to buy a used Turbo. Like I said: if you see a low mileage one with PCCB, jump on it (screw the color LOL). I have driven just about every car out there (F430, GT2, GT3, Gallardo, Ford GT, Corvette, etc.), some to decent speed, and although each of those cars is fantastic and is obviously better than Turbo in one aspect or another, as an all around daily driver/cruiser/sport car, the Turbo has NO competition. It is a fantastic achievement and I love every minute of driving it; taking it through curves, stomping on the gas pedal - everything! You do have to mod the exhaust and suspension though.
Last edited by cannga; 10-15-2011 at 08:48 PM.
#15
10-15-2011, 01:24 AM
PCCB? Really? Why? It's complete overkill for the street and it's too expensive to maintain for track duty. 997.1 with the standard steel brakes is just fine. It's hard to go wrong with the 997.1. The only thing I'd consider changing is the seats, where I'd upgrade to the sport bucket seats from 2009 on.
